Sound off!

I do end up 'dressing down' a bit because I get the same reaction all the other femmes posting seem to, which is unfortunate. Even then, I'm still pretty femme andd I love being girly, so it's fantastic to read there are lots of women who actually really appreciate it!

I cut my hair short and have kept it that way since. (=

No. I was the same before and after. The only thing I purchased was a little rainbow flag pin which I wore on parade days and such.

People should be who they are. Personally, I don't think their sexual orientation should be the main focus of their fashion sense or personal appearance. When you can look at someone from across the room and say 'lesbian' based solely on her hairstyle or the way she dresses then I think they've started to border on stereotypes.

The last thing I'd want to date is a 'professional lesbian'. I would hope that they'd have more going for them (other interests, other facets of their personality) than just their sexuality.

issy- i do know that there is no such thing as looking one or another, but i decided that in order to signal to gay women that i was actually worth approaching, i had (or maybe i didn't but it worked for me) to tweak my look a bit. so a few subtle changes here and there, but i'd never totally change just to fit in. :)

Just so I am clear, cuz I don't want to be mixed up, but if one posts something that someone else doesn't like that's it? game over? really?

What happened to tolerance? i mean you can't always like what everyone says...if you do you are too much like me in that you PRETEND that you are ok with everything but seriously, if you don't like something skip it, the more attention it gets the more it becomes prevelant, at least in my experience.

That being said, I know what White_fox was talking about in the first place.... when I first admitted to myself I liked girls all I could think of was 'ummmmm, who's gay?' I am decidedly girly, but definately a top, so confusing to most though I am TOTALLY into short haired, more masculine (not into your make up) kinda girls, but girls who are still, none-the-less GIRLS... or women to be politically incorrect.

I couldn't be less girly if I tried, I enjoy being a girl. That being said if you are femme I am confused, if you are more butchy i will flirt and know you on site, unless of course I am in the valley, then once again I am confused cuz even straight girls out there are kinda masculine, must be the farming ***NO I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL WOMEN IN THE VALLEY ARE FARMERS****

I think I may skip answering the questions and post on the general wall as it is a pity to have people get so up in arms about posts....sad, sad, sad.

This question makes me think about Superdyke herself, over there in her corner... Wonder how she dresses when she's not her super-hero-self?
It's unfortunate that labels exist at all. I am not soup or beans or tuna (hehe). I am simply me.
'femme' is hot. 'butch' is hot. 'middle of the road' is hot.
It's about the contents, not the container. Maybe I lack subtlety, but you'll know if I'm interested; I'm not the least bit afraid of putting myself out there to someone who's straight.
All that being said, I couldn't be more identifiably gay than if I had a rainbow flag tattooed on my shoulder...oh wait, I do.

I have always dressed on the masculine side, but after I came out, only a couple years ago, I felt the freedom to completely dress in men's clothing and styles. It wasn't because I was butch and therefore 'had to' dress in that manner, but because it's who I am. I also pack 24/7 to complete the package, so to speak.

As the ladies who look, dress and act feminine, all I can say is thank God! Those are the women who float my boat and cause me many a sleepless night.

That said, I think people should be who they want to be and ignore the stereotypes and labels. Not everybody is completely on the butch or femme side of the spectrum, just as 'straight' men and women are rarely completely masculine or feminine. That's what being a human being is all about.

Nerdy, I do again want to say that there really is no such thing as 'looking straight' or 'looking gay.' We should look at the range of appearances of people on this site as proof of that fact.

Some of the most butch women I ever met were heterosexual, rural, Ontario farm women and I've met some incredibly feminine lesbians (yay!). I understand the pressure to conform but don't give in. Look however you like to look.

I changed my appearance when I came out of denial to myself, but it was two more years until I came out of the closet.

nobody thought i was queer so i had to change it a bit. i'm still confusing, but that's better than looking totally straight.

wf, you are the hot, hot sex of this forum.

issyvoo -- love that last comment.

when i vamped it up when i was straight, i often got treated as though i was dressing 'for' straight guys (even though i wasn't -- it was for me, and i enjoyed femininity for the sake of itself). that had always grossed me out and was really infuriating.

being gay has made appearances, and experimenting with them, a lot more free, exciting and fun :)

Purevertigo, it's interesting how femininity feels more fun, almost like a rebel stance in the queer community while, in the straight world, it feels like it's mandatory and therefore no fun. Indeed, as with your experience, looking more androgynous seems the mandatory look in the queer scene. One's look needs to feel like a choice to be enjoyed. I think straight people see me as feminine but not girly whereas lesbians see me as quite girly. It's all relative.

I do not look at your dress or special symbols... I look in your eyes:)

The first time I went to a gay bar (in edmonton, 6 years ago) I was asked 'what's a straight girl like you doing here?'. So I cut my hair short, even shaved it once, and tried to dress androgynous, all to prove my queer-ness. I never felt very comfortable, and after I got into a relationship I slowly started to discouver my femme side. The funny thing is, I'm now much more 'girly' than I ever was when I was younger and trying to date boys. I didn't like being stereotypically girly then, but I love being femme now because I'm secure in my queer identity and intentionally choosing the parts of traditional femininity that I enjoy, and leaving what I don't. I love skirts and dresses and jewelery and sparkly things, I like makeup but don't feel compelled to wear it all the time, but I keep my hair short. I think what I value most from the coming out process is that I learned to be more myself and not to be afraid of being different... although maybe that was also just growing up.

No, I wouldn't expect you to drop your pants for me, sugartits -- but think of it this way: who is confessing all of their resentments, complaints and apparent vulnerabilities all over the friggin' Internet for everyone to see, and then tell me who is being the fool? Or, the bigger question is: why is everyone taking this so seriously? I hate to say this, but the Internet is not real, and it is pretty darn hard to make any conjectures about any human being based on a friggin' message board. If you were really exposing your genuine vulnerabilities on the Internet, I would truly think that there was something wrong with your sense of reality, Sugartits.

(Sheesh -- and I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn too.)

Oh well, I am as evil as you think I am, Sugartits. Absolutely.

[Edited by skippy: This was the last straw - you're no longer welcome to post to the Sound Off area.]

Heather, in my mind, the butch and femme labels should only apply to appearance. I LOATHE the phrase 'butch on the streets and femme in the sheets' because the implication is that femme is passive and butch is dominant and that is just plain cruel stereotyping. Look however you look and be whoever you are. Don't worry about your appearance 'matching' your feelings and actions. There's no such thing as a logical or natural match between the two. If people have a problem with that, that's their problem, not yours.

If anyone ever assumes they know anything about my temperament, desires, behaviours, sexual preferences, etc, based upon my appearance, or based upon the fact that I am female, that person is not someone I want as a friend and certainly not as a lover.

whitefox_ca -- i get how you think that's relevant to this thread, but it's also kind of gross and trivializing something many of us deal with on a daily basis. am i really supposed to just drop my pants for you? that's the answer?

people are being genuine and vulnerable about their experiences here. please respect that by not making it into a really poor joke.

Sorry! I did have paragraph breaks. Not sure where they went......

I'm only out to myself this past year. I identified as bi for 10 years before that. I have not changed my appearance, but wonder if I should because I'm taken for straight all the time. My friend got me a rainbow pin that says 'carpet muncher,' but I feel too old to plaster myself in rainbows and find rainbows ugly besides. She also said to hang out with more apparent lesbians and people will figure it out. I like that better. :)

I was the seven-year-old who asked grandpa to stop sending pink dresses because I only ever wore them in the photos we'd send him. As a nine-year-old I begged Mom for a royal blue Super Mario Brothers 3 sweat suit from the boys' department of Zellers. I didn't brush my waist length hair and wouldn't let others touch it either. In my teens loose jeans and tees were the style, thankfully. In adulthood I've slowly adjusted to women's clothes and like them now.

When I teach in flats, dress pants, and a blouse or sweater, I see it as being the 'teacher' role more than the 'woman' role though. Coming out isn't one experience, it's many sometimes daily interactions. The best compliment another gay teammate gave me was to say she wasn't surprised to hear I was gay. I'm finding the butch/femme labels difficult and restrictive. For now I've settled on the femme side of andro.

It seems even others in the community are confused by me too though. In the straight world I'm a tomboy and in the gay world a femme, but only on the outside. My mannerisms (walk, temperament, interests) are more masculine. Seems confusing, even to me, that the femme I am also wants to be the gentleman and chivalrous. I love to treat, open doors etc. Some of my students remarked that I teach like a guy teacher....

So, any advice? Will I meet a sweet girl who will embrace me looking feminine and acting masculine? Are there things I can do to advertise my sexuality better?

I have a solution to this problem of not being identifiably queer: the solution is that when I meet you, you could just take off all your clothes. I am about as obtuse as a hockey puck when it comes to gaydar, so the whole naked thing might help me to identify you to myself and others a bit better.

If not, we might have some entertainment in the meantime, at least.

Sweetandspicy, try dressing femme but wearing some rainbows. It sort of works. Of course, most rainbow jewelry is too masculine so it's a struggle to find pretty rainbows but it might help.

When I was 18 and came out to the world at large, I started wearing a leather coat that had been my dad's at my age, and put rainbow paraphanalia on my backpack. I don't think it was so much an effort to conform with lesbian stereotypes as it was being excited that I could finally be visually identified as queer. Now I don't really comply with any identifiable group alone. Which really confused people when I shaved my head and wore makeup. People are so easily confused, though.

I used to wear dresses and heels to the bar, but felt like I got ignored as a femme. The last time I went out I wore a tank top and a tie and got way more attention. Unfortunately, no matter how much I try to 'butch it up' I'm pretty femme. I'm ok with that but it would be nice if I was more 'identifiable'.

Ah, so I will elaborate more myself, as for me it was a slight change it attitude more about myself and not really towards others, the true awakening!!!

Not particularly. Rather, I now feel more comfortable with my appearance. I no longer ask myself 'Is this too butch?' or 'Will this get me mistaken for a guy - again?' I think the reason is twofold: being more relaxed with my orientation and simply getting older and not caring as much about what other people think.

Not externally but most definitely internally and I am sure that without further elaboration my meaning is evident. Cheers.

Kiki -- that's Alice Prin to you, Issyvoo

Back in the 50s, a woman who was 'in the middle' and could pull off butch or femme, depending on her mood, was called 'kiki.' So there was butch, femme, and kiki. How we do seem to crave our labels! Apparently, I'm not kiki. I'm told that even when I think I'm wearing butch clothes, they become femme on me because of my mannerisms. That brings up an interesting point: some of us may have changed our appearance but did we, or can we, change our mannerisms?

I didn't change my appearance I was dressing in the middle more I'd say and am still doing so now. I just feel comfortable with the way I look and don't feel pressured to try and fit into a femme or butch category.

I looked 'in the middle' loooong before I even questioned my orientation. Oddly enough, I've felt MORE comfortable dressing femme since I've come out to myself.

I still dress pretty much the same as I did before. Now I'm just happy wearing whatever I feel best in that day, instead of feeling like I didn't fit into any 'category'.

Oh, and of course, I didn't change my appearance because I thought that's how gay girls had to look. Actually, it was the opposite, I felt pressure to look more in the middle instead...Anyone else have similar experiences?

I love this topic! Everyone's experiences are different :D A lot of people said they didn't end up changing their appearance when they came out, but i very much did. I think coming out gave me the confidence and freedom to finally dress and look the way I felt most comfortable - so I did cut my hair and start wearing some guy's clothes, etc...and as I dated girls that tended to be 'femmier', I got more comfortable and confident with my new self and haven't changed my appearance / identity since. :D

No.

I go through super butchy times and then I'll wear skirts for months...

I'm alll over the place =]

I didn't change my appearance, but I have had so many appearances over the years. when i was tried and true str8 girl in the 80's (ok...well, wasn't tried and true necessarily) i hacked off all my hair to look like marsha warfield from night court, complete with shaved sides and back with words shaved into it....OMG...the 80's ugh! I say femme because not only can i pass for str8 but i LOVE being girly...but I am not always....sometimes i don the sweat shirt and jeans and pony my hair, doesn't take away from the femme part of me.... i am who i want to be, girly sometimes, not so much other times.... i thought about cutting off my hair and such but then decided that in order to do that i would have to change my wardrobe and cut my fingernails (GO AHEAD...*GASP*. It helps that most of my g/fs (ok, 2 outta 3) love that i love being girly.......

oh yeah, i definitely don't mean 'cool' in that people are heterosexist... more in the 'haHA, i get to turn your heterosexist assumptions upside down!' sort of way :)

I agree, Sugar, that femmes have to come out over and over again. I don't agree that it's cool though. I hate it. I'd rather people just stopped assuming I'm straight.

the other thing about femme, i find, is that there's not just one coming out. so it's hard to judge if i changed my appearance 'after.' so many people assume i'm straight, so i feel like i'm coming out all. the. time.

which is cool in it's own way.

Nope...but sometimes I wish I had a sign 'I'm gay'


most ppl say'are u sure ur gay?'

by the way, not to offend the femmes about complaining, but thank you for being glad about your appearance. Because, do you know what it is like to make love to a woman who looks like a pretty Hitler for an entire year? No wonder I'm so screwed up.

you're welcome, kavie. Although I thought that I was only supposed to leave one comment on here, and not interact with the other people. Or has this become a 'not ok' for Whitefox, but ok for everyone else kind of board??? Jeez, and all the femmes complain about discrimination... what happens when you're an animal with a bushy tail who is not a relative of Rockefeller? blame the Whitefox, that's for sure.

Did I use the word 'props' correctly? I was trying to be down with the young person's slang.

I remember a lesbian once telling my friend and me that we looked really hot because, 'You look like straight girls.' A few people here have said that, in looking femme, they 'looked straight.' I think we simply need to discard any idea of what straight or gay or lesbian or bi, etc, looks like. Lesbians can look femme and it doesn't mean they look straight; heterosexuals can look butch and it doesn't mean they look lesbian. People come in all kinds of genders and all kinds of sexualities and there's no formula to match a gender to a sexuality.

And as a femme who loves femmes, I too applaud all you femmes who haven't hacked off your hair or thrown on the combat boots. All props to butch but all props to femme too. And everything in between.

P.S. I cannot wait for my back to heal so I can wear all of my high heels again!

I came out in the early eighties and felt ostracized for looking straight..I got picked on..people would make fun of the way I dressed..I wore pink, carried a purse ( still do). It just wasn't cool to not look the part back then. Well, it's who I am..and I refused to change just so I could fit in. I guess some lesbian's thought that by me wearing make up and heels etc..that I was conforming to what the hetero sexual Male's ideas of what a woman should look like...I dressed that way because it was what I felt like wearing. I found it confusing because I'm sure some of the women who picked on me for not looking the part must of put up with a lot of discrimination for looking butch in their lives..I'm glad it's o.k. to be a femme lesbian these days.

~sadly I did...just for a little while....the women I was hanging around with all looked butch or androgynous....and I looked like a straight woman...long hair, long painted nails, lipstick...the whole nine yards.

I chopped my hair off, wore just chap stick and filed my nails down to stubs. I was incredibly self conscious and miserable.....so I went back to what it meant to be me. I have never looked back, and I must say, some appreciate my femme side!

I didn't change my appearance, but I found that I did fit in more appearance wise.

Hi everyone!
First I would like to say all you femme girls out there DO NOT dress down . Bring it on Strong!! It is hot !
Second, thankyou Whitefox for your tamed comment , I appreciate the intelligence of your insight.
Finally , i did not change my appearance when i came out. My ex husband and I were often mistaken for a male couple and attacked more than once. Now my partner and i walk up the street and the gay boys hit on me. I am who I am .

Love this question. Nope I didn't change my look but almost! I walked into lick in a dress with long hair not oto long after coming out, I was wearing make up and had all these butch chicks were lookin at me like I was in the wrong place! There was no way I was gonna change my look and I am glad I didn't!

Thanks, Valley. I bet you came out more recently than I did, right? I think it's better than it was.

Ummm...yeah I changed my appearance. I now appear in women's undepants, not men's.

I thought that was as lesbian as you could get? Am I wrong?

I, personally, am very very femme. I haven't had a bad reaction to it yet - in fact a certain hottie seems to like it just fine!

@issyvoo - When I came out I was actually terrified of that. The last thing a newbie needs is to be ostracized by the community that should embrace her. I wish I cold smack some of them for you. ;P

I came out in 1989 and felt a LOT of pressure to stop being so feminine. For the most part, I resisted this pressure and received a lot of criticism as a result. I was frequently 'accused' of being straight, or stupid, or mainstream, or 'capitulating to the patriarchy,' or unaware of feminism, or still wanting to 'attract the male gaze.' It was disgusting.

The first time I went to a gay bar with my equally femme friend/girlfriend, we were approached and asked if we knew we were in a gay bar. The reasoning being, I suppose, that feminine women could never be queer and/or were so stupid that they could blunder into a lesbian bar (with a big sign saying 'Lesbian Bar') without realizing it. It still pisses me off when I think about it.

I wanted a dyky hair cut what ever that is, but I was too embarassed to ask my stylist to do it. I came out to myself when I was 28(1990), way before Ellen. I only had Madonna in Like a Prayer to go by. I think the closest I got to a uniform I got was t-shirts under a bluse and no bra.

For now I wear t's and sweaters and wish I had the money to shop in New York. Hair cut next week.

no. i only change my appearance if i have to make one. i used to call coming out 'making an appearance' when i came out (i.e. 'i made an appearance when i was 21), but i never equated 'making an appearance' with making an appearance. a little clarification, there. i am a lesbian for all occasions, hegemonically-orchestrated and otherwise.

cut my hair off about a year later and got lots of tats and piercings.

not really -- although I did become a vegetarian for awhile there, and then became anaemic because I didn't really know how to eat properly and so only ate peanut butter all day. Still, being organic, vegetarian, and a lesbo was a great way to make me feel like I was better than everyone else and very special indeed. I even stopped shaving my armpits for awhile too, and wow -- did everyone ever find me special! (no offense to vegetarians or non-shavers -- it might work for you -- but I'm too lazy. And anaemic.)

My girlfriend, who was really quite naturally femme, basically just got a haircut that made her look exactly like Hitler. I have no idea why she felt it necessary to get this bowlcut to prove that she was tough, but she did. Thankfully, after about a year, she let her hair grow back to what it was before, and she looked more like her normal self.

It is probably an important phase of coming out -- changing your appearance to look exactly like Shane from the L word -- but whatever your sexuality, eventually we all become who we are supposed to be anyway.

i did before... but it was more like, i had unrelatedly changed a few things about my appearance, and i started getting attention from women. and that pretty much initiated my being gay.

after deciding i was a homo, i wore my 'the organ' tshirt a lot more often ;)

nope i am what i am and that is all that i am