Sound off!

I don't know -- I was watching the PBS station the other day with the Big Band era movies and I got this funny feeling while looking at the middle Andrews Sister -- the blonde one -- in her uniform and singing 'Rum

Uniforms? Nope, not my thing. Now, sexy wrap-around dresses and 40s style, sling-back, peep toed heels? Yes!

agreed.

oh, fox.

now that's a good one.

yes Valley Grrl -- that research project sounds like a good idea -- why not send out a flyer to all your heterosexual female neighbours detailing your dissertation topic entitled: 'The Effects of Women Learning Latin in the Repressed Fraser Valley'. Chapter One: 'Labia Majora and How Many People Still Think It is an Italian Restaurant on McCallum Road'... and so on...

that should be the next question: how many thousands of you lesbians get turned on by uniforms?

what is it about uniforms? it must have something to do with the cat thing as well

he he he he he.

Ahhh. My work here is done...

hmmm....I think I'll purchase a hot uniform and mosey on over to fox's general vicinity. >_>

How bout this, whitefox: I'll let you use it, even claim it. Just promise you'll let me know how it goes... ;-)

That has to be the most classic line ever written, Coolmomma: 'hey, I think you might be a lesbian. Do you like potlucks?'

I wonder if it will work on that really hot dental assistant/bank teller/meter maid/ waitress I saw last week?

Being a native of South Louisiana, I already know what it's like to live somewhere that's not exactly open-minded when it comes to being gay. I think there, though, it's definitely worse for gay men than for gay women and things have changed a lot in the last 10 years. I've never really had an issue with anyone giving me attitude or whatever because I'm gay. In that way, I think I'm a pretty good ambassador in being around people who don't know anyone who's gay or who have historically had attitude about it. I think I'm a good example of how we're just like everyone else, not all swinging from chandeliers.

Having lived in Canada for the better part of 10 years now, I think it would be hard for me to live down South again knowing that I wouldn't be as comfortable being affectionate with my partner in public and that we would not have the right to be married there.

Valley, call the LGBT Centre in Vancouver and ask them about events in the valley. Read Xtra West (which is, I'll admit, not an easy read) and see about events and groups in the valley. Do some google searches. Come into the city sometimes and see who you meet who might be from the valley. And get Mimzey to tell you when/where the next potluck (or something better) is! One has to treat this sort of thing like a research project or a job search. It's not enough to just be out.

In my opinion, we don't reach out to one another nearly often enough. Generally, this is justifiable. It remains a huge risk to say 'Hey, I think you might be a lesbian. Do you like potlucks?'

Even here, as out as we are, we have no adult friends who live anything except a 'normal' lifestyle. I know of at least three lesbian couples in the area, but none of us have made the effort to reach out to each other... The reasons for that are probably another thread entirely; maybe we fear we'll become militant? Lol.

Finally, I concur entirely that public acceptance in Canada is very much a product of political correctness. I guess I have enough of the idealist in me to choose to believe that hypocrisy is minimal. (I wonder if I'll ever outgrow my naivity?)

Okay, I'm not being that serious about it. I just felt I had to answer the post pointing at my statements. I'm not emotionally attached to this thread... :P

Mimzey

If there is a very OUT community here it sure is hard to find. I didn't mean to undermine it, I was simply completely unaware of its exsistence.

Maybe the next Sound off! question could be: Should gay and lesbian communities in smaller areas make themselves clearly visible or is it an unreasonable expectation by those who have been unable to find it?

A funny thing I've been told a few times it to get OUT there. I am. I live and work in this community, I have a daughter in school, kids in daycare. I shop here, I play here... I'm not in the closet. So, what exactly am I not being OUT there?

I don't mean to sound snotty; I'm posing serious questions.

ummm...i think that there is a vast difference between being tolerant and being non-judgmental. i often feel as though i am being tolerated while being judged in a negative light and it does make me uncomfortable.

Don't we all? Most people in the lower mainland aren't openly hostile, but neither are they plainly and openly accepting either.

I moved from North Surrey to the Langley area about 10 years ago, expecting it to be redneck central. Have been completely out and outspoken. Pleasantly surprised to find most people accepting. The ones who aren't seem to know it's their problem, not mine.

I think that at times we tend to overestimate the level of tolerance in Canada. In many circles in Canada being gay is only tolerated privately. The reality is that generally speaking the Canadian population is very politically correct. Hence you would not know to which extent your gayness is tolerated/accepted or not. This is especially true when you are completely out or when you fit a certain 'stereotype'. Derogatory comments will not be made around you and you will not know if your gayness is perceived as an issue. I also think that depending on when you realized that you were gay will completely change your perception of things. If you came out as a teen, by the time you reach adulthood being gay is part of who you are and you are known as a gay person in your circle. Not the same if you come to this realization in your late 20's, early 30's and your entire environment knows you as a straight person.

not unless I was being held hostage there.

No I would not live in a place like that voluntarily.

Oi these threads seem to get overly wordy and pretentious pretty quickly LOL

I agree that definitely take a lot of guts to stand up for yourself and say this is who I am

Hey -- speaking of this thread -- I don't know if there are any hockey fans out there, but some of you may know that Brendan Burke, the son of GM and President of the Maple Leafs Brian Burke (former Canucks GM too), died in a car crash in Indiana yesterday. Brendan came out last year to the sports media in order to 'lessen the homophobia in hockey' (he was a goalie and a sports manager for Miami University team). And, thankfully, his father Brian fully supported Brendan, and took a strong stance against homophobia in hockey.

It is very sad that Brendan passed away after a very short life, but let's face it -- he took a very public stand in order to educate people about homophobia. He didn't have to do that, but he did --

Wow -- it's amazing the brave things that some gay people do and have to face everyday. I mean, seriously. That's heroic.

That should read 'its' not 'it's'!

Well, Plum, change it's direction then. These threads are created by those who participate. They are not out of your control.

I apologize, I just hate everything about this thread.


next (please).

no, I'm serious

How did you think I was saying I was straight based on what I said? I assume you're making a joke?

.....so you're saying that you're straight?

I too have been very out and made an effort to educate people but I do less of that as I get older. It's not my job. Heterosexuality is not a job like that and it's unfair that simply being who we are is a political job for queers. Sometimes, I'd rather just relax. Too, Valley brings up the point of invisibility. Those of us who are very feminine in appearance have to come out verbally, over and over again. Are we then to blame if we weary of doing so and people assume we're straight? Is it always our job to correct their assumptions? Heck, I can't tell you how many times I HAVE come out to someone and, in time, they start talking of me as if I'm straight anyway.

ValleyGrrl...I feel I must interject and share my experiences from living in that same community....... 'So much so that I was warned by my counsellor to be careful who I spoke to if I planned on doing business here - it seems I jumped out of the closet into the frying pan.'
This saddens me greatly and I wonder who your councellor is? This statement from you counsellor in my opinion is their 'own' opinion on gays and has nothing to do with actual facts. I am unsure as to how long you have lived in chilliwack but trust me when I say it is the lesbian nesting spot of the Fraser Valley. There are hundreds of lesbians living in chilliwack, happy, OUT, and part of the community. And yes, we even have 'gay' owed establishments and events. So please get OUT there..live your life and then report back on how the people of Chilliwack treated you based on your experiences. I would be surprised to hear it was anything but accepted.

Strawberry, you are awesome, too.

I live where ever I want and be who I am always.

I lived in Japan for over a year. In Tokyo and the larger cities it was tolerated or accepted, but in my smaller city it basically didn't exist. I heard that there was a gay bar, but it was membership only and not open to foreigners.

When I told my (Japanese) coworker I was bisexual she was absolutely blown away. She was quite good about the whole thing and very curious as she had never met 'a gay' before. I mentioned that my Japanese friend was bisexual and her comment was 'I didn't know we had that here...'

In all seriousness, Coolmomma, you have amazing strength. Women like you make me proud to be female, and gay. XOX

Damn your nobility, Coolmomma! Fine, while I'm here I will strive to be the most comfortably out lesbian I can be.

If you figure out that I have no gf and look like a soccer mom, you'll realize how insignificant this is. Forget that damn t-shirt idea - I can't wear the same clothes every day.

I'll walk tall (shut up if you read my profile and want to call me on this :P) and proud and will still assimilate like I always do. Sh*t, what's a girl to do? (I refuse to cut my hair, it makes my head look small.)

Thanks winddancerr, but it may have more to do with a good set of blinders than strength. However, it was a commitment I made as a teen when I came out, the perhaps naive belief that the easiest way to change the world was through direct, individual interactions. It's an ideal that has stuck, mostly due to the choice to be aware of the outcomes. Not without it's disappointments, yet overall a decision resulting in self-respect. (and my apologies for occasional funny spelling and added letters-iPhones can be persnickety)
T

coolmomma.... you have more strength then me. I tip my proverbial hat : )

Returning to the question as it was first expressed: absolutely. I live in a hamlet of about 40 houses. We've been here for almost 8 years, and have watche the evolution o acceptance. We are not a PDA kind of couple, but affectionate nicknames are part of our vernacular. We now own a business in a nearby community, are foster parents, have a close relationship with the local high school co-operative education program and know a large percentage of the under 25 population in our small, rural Ontario town.
I have had the joy of watching a new Grandma proudly show pictures of her lesbian daughter, her partner, and their twins where once this would not have happened. I have the privilege of being honorary mom to the baby-dykes in town who are struggling with their identities. I watched the little church in the community accept same-sex marriage. And I believe it is through the living of my life. Disproving stereotypes about lesbians, being a hard-working member of the community at large, and being willing to answer questions and be part of creating understanding.
To show for this, I have four kids who are proud of their familiy, myriad friends of all ages, and a smal town who, unknowingly has had it's eyes opened.
Sometimes it is the politic of subtlety that wins the most battles...
T

ye! love that pronoun.

The reality is that many folks don't have the luxury of choosing where they live, especially youth in developing nations. I think we should all be thankful for how privileged most of us are in North America for being able to relocate from homophobic communities into larger, more queer-friendly centers like Vancouver. A part of me would love to return to Poland, where I lived for several years, and join my fellow Polish queers to change discriminatory laws and attitudes. Considering I find myself uncomfortably vigilant when I leave the 'gay bubble' of Vancouver and venture into the urban centers of the Fraser Valley, I don't think I could truthfully handle Poland again! That and I have no desire to live in a place where my mere existence is political.

Issyvoo: totally. There are so many prejudices that allow us to discriminate against our very own.

Take note, all ye dykes out there.

why do I feel like spanking you now, Rainbow Princess?

i think a lot of us can agree that at some point in time we have experienced that in or around where we live. I've experienced it, mainly in high school but still its harsh. I dont think we will ever live in a place that its 100% accepted, until we get equal treatment as women...which is predicted to happen in 2124 ;) But I guess the most important thing is to publicly rock it no matter what other fcukbags say ;) Ps whitefox srsly $t0p m3s4inG uP Ur EnGl!$h !t 0ffenDz m3 !

oh jeez I screwed up my subject-verb agreement.

nope, not no more...been there, done that

Nat, you are so right about the prejudices within the queer community. When I first came out, there was also a lot of prejudice against 'femmes' though that seems to have gotten better.

Gardener, I know how holding hands can feel like a political gesture but sometimes one just wants to hold someone's hand without bracing oneself for the stares and reactions. Sometimes one wants it just to be about holding hands. Maybe we'll get there some day.

You know, I should grab hold of my ovaries and wear a very distinctive lesbian t-shirt around town for the weekend. Something like that 'I pay my taxes' by Marc Jacobs (cuz let's face it, you can hate dykes but you can't hate high fashion - indifference to either won't count for this experiment) and record some of the responses, looks, and exorcisms. It would be a good test to see who's more sensitive, me or them.

weird.

yes I could privately act like a man. yes

Just look at the bi, pan and transphobia within the 'queer community'.

(says the person who just spewed off a whole lot of garbage in the previous discussion -- although silliness and over-the-topness is different than deliberate hatred -- )

Then again, I do believe that it is easier for people to accept homosexuality if the queer is Caucasian, able-bodied and middle-class. Unfortunately, I have heard the worst crap come out of gay people's mouths about other minority groups. You would think that more queers would be sensitive to discrimination as we have obviously felt it ourselves. However, that is not necessarily the case sometimes, and it might come down to individual responses to circumstances. Hate is hate sometimes, no matter where you go.

Not a chance. As someone else pointed out, those of us who came out a long time ago have already lived this reality. What we have now--at least the comfort and relative safety we have in central Vancouver--is precious.
When I am in relationship, I/we make a point of holding hands wherever the inclination strikes, as a matter of educating people who aren't accustomed to seeing lesbians. I don't look the part, so I think this is a form of activism that effectively reaches people who (for all we know) may not think they have ever even seen a lesbian. Or at least not one who didn't fit their stereotypes and prejudices.

I still struggle sometimes with defending the gays.

I think it stems from how taken aback I get, considering the amazing, supportive environment I grew up in.

This shell shock translates into me standing there with a confused, slack-jawed expression, and an inability to know where to start.

I'm working on it, though.

Valley, I waffle on whether or not it's my duty to educate people. It irritates me to have to do so. I was once out for beers with people when one of them made some stupid remark about lesbians. A straight man leapt in and educated her (and he was very articulate and clear-headed) and it was lovely to, for once, just sit back and let someone else do the work. Sometimes one just doesn't want to put oneself on the line like that.

I suppose I could attempt to educate the small minds in my small town and I could even see how somone would consider it my civic duty to do so - quite frankly, I feel too selfish to do that.

I haven't been part of the lesbian culture long enough to feel as though I can develop myself in an atmosphere like this. I certainly have had no luck finding a group of friends. I've played at the straight table long enough to know that, while I don't require my gayness to take over my whole life, I am not willing to have it sit in the backseat anymore.

Just a difference in people, I guess. :)

when i had to perform a bit of hotel shopping in boston when i traveled there for work last year, i found hotels that were outwardly listed online as 'gay friendly.' like 'we're gay friendly!'. i was all like uh i wonder if they're negro friendly or fat people friendly or mexican friendly, and if they are (or not), why it wasn't indicated on their websites.

anyway, man did i have a laugh about that. i felt transported through time back to the clinton era.

i suppose i have been out for so long that i'm in--i don't really care about what people think of my behaviour/lifestyle, whether i'm in vancouver or boston or where ever, y'know, up to a point. if i thought my physical safety was effectively at risk, i would be more discreet. if it is about avoiding the discomfort that comes along with being stared at, or someone asking me which one of us is the guy, meh--i feel like it is my civic responsibility to just suck it up and normify. this is the only way to educate the stare-y, glare-y, sexist, hetero-washed masses. indeed, this is the only way that, eventually, they will normify, too.

and, from someone who has spent time in almost every small town in alberta, sask, northern BC, you'd be surprised how much tolerance you'll find. not always, but, it's there. and the rest of em just generally get used to you.

sarah.

I don't think that homosexuality is REALLY accepted anywhere in Canada yet to begin with...so the premise is faulty. It's like those people who believe that we are post-feminist -- ha!

I do live in such a place. So much so that I was warned by my counsellor to be careful who I spoke to if I planned on doing business here - it seems I jumped out of the closet into the frying pan.

I'm planning a move to Vancouver this summer. I didn't out myself just so I could hide again.

Any of us who came out more than ten years ago already have lived in such an environment. Anyone living in a rural location is living in such an environment. Anyone living in the many countries in the world where homosexuality is still illegal live in such an environment. For many, this is neither a choice nor a hypothetical question. Too, it is often not even 'tolerated privately.' There is a law that will probably soon be passed in Uganda which makes it illegal not to report any gay friends or relatives, making it impossible for friends and family to privately 'tolerate' homosexuality.

I do! and it is absolute hell. I moved here frm a bigger city where diversity of any kind is far more tolerated or matter of fact. Here it is like a giant step back in time. You get harassed walking up the street! It makes me feel like im living in the 60's or the dark ages, but in essence, i am. These people are inexposed, undersocialized and truly ignorant. I am here due to logisitics, but dont plan on staying. I would rather suffer in OTHER ways and have the freedom to be me, than stay some where this suffocating. In the interim, it is very eye opening, in a sad sort of way.