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| one male identified trans perspective |
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i'm goin' off on a rant about diva's den being a transinclusive event...i think it's great that mtfs....transfolks that are women identified are welcome at diva's den and pretty much always have been. or gender queers, transgender folks that don't identify as male...
i think it's a travesty that ftm or male identified folks are now a part of that inclusion.
talk about mysogyny winning the battle. why would anyone that has made the conscious decision to transition and identify as MALE feel they have any right to be at a women's event put on by and for women?
every single tranny guy out there that calls himself a he, a male and a guy made the choice to get on the transition wagon and has also been granted access to male priviledge once they start passing. they made the choice to be given access to places they have never been allowed to go before. and the choice to be denied access to places they have always been allowed to go to...if only by the sake of their female bodies.
when i decided to transition i knew i wouldn't be allowed in women's only space again. i felt i shouldn't intrude on women's only space long before i made that choice. i haven't gone to diva's den for years because i support and celebrate the right for women to have events that are exclusive and for women only.
i support women's only space. there really isn't much of it...it's an ongoing battle and now tranny boys are taking that away too. with the argument that they come from these communities, have female bodies, were called dykes and lesbians before they decided to make the CHOICE to identify as male.
i was born a tranny, a male identified person in what is defined as female bits.
let me tell all of the women out there - i have never known what it feels like to be a girl, a woman, female identified...it is wrong to think that i am just like you or that a transguy is ok in women's space because they aren't really men. or that any male identified person that has always felt male, boy, guy, man really gets what it's like to be a woman. we get what it's like to be a man, a boy, male identified in what is defined as women only space by society - our female bodies.
i don't think any tranny guy out there is fighting to be recognized as male only to be viewed as being the same as women and not really men. i know a lot of tranny guys really vehemently oppose this. the issue of folks that identify as male wanting access and priviledge to women's only space has come up on a local transguy email list recently.
there are many transguys that are pissed off that women's spaces are being taken away under the guise of being progressive and transinclusive. if the tranny boys want to see some women strip and take off their clothes there are plenty of options. how about creating a new event rather than taking over an old one?
how about working to create tranny space and helping women keep what little space they have? i've been in this fight for queer space. i've been in this fight for women's space. i've been in this fight for trans space...we can have seperate space too folks. we are all inherently different.
there is nothing progressive about letting a bunch of male identified folks take over a women's only space. it's been happening for the last how many thousands of years? what would be real progression is those tranny boys getting off their asses and creating tranny space, promoting tranny events and fighting for tranny rights that aren't at the expense of the rights of another group of oppressed people. that would be really progressive in my opinion.
i was a performer in the first diva's den. i didn't identify as a woman then...i didn't identify as male either. i identified as transgender as two-spirited and i was welcome there. any trans person or genderqueer person that doesn't identify as male is welcome there. has always been. once i decided to identify with my male spirit instead of my female body i also gave up my pass to events like diva's den.
i wouldn't change it for the world. i am realizing my true self. and i am not a woman. and i celebrate the right of women to congregate freely in space that is free of men or male identifed folks. i will fight for it.
this argument about "of course bio men would never be included and transmen are because they aren't those kind of men " is bunk.
all that says is transmen aren't really men. only bio men are "real" men and of course are a threat to women's only space. transmen aren't a threat to women's space because let's face it, they don't have a penis...so they aren't real men.
welcome to transphobia.
tranny guys taking over women's space is not progressive at all.
yes, i am fuckin' pissed at this issue. agree or disagree....how about some dialogue.
i'd like to hear from some of those male identified trannies that have fought to be included in women's only events. i want to hear your argument...tell me why YOU call yourself male, are fighting to be recognized as such, are telling women in this community to call you by a male name, use male identified pronouns to address you, treat you as male and want women's priviledge too? what little there is of women's priviledge that is.
welcome to mysogyny.
i'd like to hear from the women out there that think tranny guys should be allowed into women's only spaces, that we aren't bio men and therefore it's not the same as letting in men. let me hear your arguments. tell me why a guy like me has a right to take over your space.
it's may 8, 2006 and equal women's rights are still a long, long way off.
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by boy_wonder: 05-09-2006 15:34.
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05-08-2006 10:42 |
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bruce
diehard vagina enthusiast
Posts: 908
Location: out in the ether
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| RE: one male identified trans perspective |
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Well, you didn't ask to hear from me boy_wonder, but here's my two cents worth anyway:
I agree wholeheartedly to your rant. Male identified transgendered folk who still want to be included in women's only spaces are exhibiting the classic case of
having your cake and eating it, too.
__________________
the difference between a flower and a weed is a judgement...
(Anonymous or Asesh Datta, no-one really knows)
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05-08-2006 10:51 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
Thread Starter 
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| RE: one male identified trans perspective |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by bruce
Well, you didn't ask to hear from me boy_wonder, but here's my two cents worth anyway:
I agree wholeheartedly to your rant. Male identified transgendered folk who still want to be included in women's only spaces are exhibiting the classic case of
having your cake and eating it, too. |
hear hear! i'm up for anyone's response bruce and thanks for the paraphrase. i especially want to get the view of folks fighting for tranny boy inclusion in womens space. that's all.
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
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05-08-2006 10:58 |
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reignfall
hardcore lesbo
Posts: 668
Location: a
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| RE: one male identified trans perspective |
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Wow.. what a passionate thead. I love and respect the array of opinions and beliefs y'all hold.
I'm going to sidestep adding any comments to this thread... mainly because I cant speak to the politics involved because I really dont know enough about them.
What stands out the most to me in this statement:
| quote: |
Originally posted by boy_wonder
and in the last few months with the incidences of male bashing type threads and posts i am not on here so much. because i don't feel like i am welcome here. i've noticed a few ftm folks i know have stopped coming on here as well. |
I've wondered why we havent seen you around these here parts anymore...and if you feel that way I apologize and would hope that you (and anyone else) would bring it to a moderator's attention in the future. My understanding of superdyke is that it is all inclusive to the ftm mtf queer bi lesbian... whatever we call ourselves community. So if that is not the case then it needs to be addressed. Its such a travesty that our queer community can be so harsh to one another... its such a sad and regressive waste of time.
That being said... I dont spend much time on the main site so I dont know what goes on there...but I encourage anyone to speak up in a thread or privately to a moderator if you dont feel comfortable with something. Even though this is the surreal world of the internet it should be a safe space for everyone.
and....
I'd be curious to see more responses to this question from b_w's original post in this thread:
| quote: |
Originally posted by boy_wonder
i'd like to hear from some of those male identified trannies that have fought to be included in women's only events. i want to hear your argument...tell me why YOU call yourself male, are fighting to be recognized as such, are telling women in this community to call you by a male name, use male identified pronouns to address you, treat you as male and want women's priviledge too? what little there is of women's priviledge that is. |
I think you are a true gentleman b_w and I fully respect what you have been saying in this thread...thank you for taking the time to open up this almighty can of worms
__________________
A working class hero is something to be. - John Lennon
O Wherefore Art Thou Bent? - Ann-Marie Macdonald
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05-12-2006 09:55 |
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I don't think gender is a black and white as that. Neither is transition. I've met a few transmen that are "male" but don't identify as a het or gay male. I think that is the difference. But its hard to draw a line anywhere when there is no way to tell how a guy identifies until you speak to him. What about those that are truly andro? Should they be refused entry too?
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05-08-2006 11:10 |
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RedneckAngel
pride princess
Posts: 433
Location: Colwood (Victoria)
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I agree with hellboy on this that gender isn't nearly as binary as your rant is making it sound B_W. I'm not saying you think it is- just saying your rant sorta implies that there are men, women, and people who want to transition into either men, or women. I personally fall somewhere in between.... or rather somehow encompass both.... nobody (least of all me) is really sure on that one..... I personally will never physically transition my biological sex (female) as I feel no need. I don't feel alien in my own skin, rather I embrace me for all my complexities.
BUT, I also agree with you B_W, that those transguys out there who want to exclusively be thought of as men, should stick to being with men, and NOT women's events. I would say the same for transwomen who want to attend male only events......
I think the reason Diva's Den is trying to be transinclusive is this simple fact- gender is NOT binary, and especially for trans folks, the lines get so incredibly blurred that it's difficult to distinguish sometimes, and personal identifications are sometimes difficult to do. I don't think Diva's Den is trying to be male-inclusive. I think they're trying to be queer-inclusive to any queers who would find their show appealing (I have a feeling bio gay men wouldn't 
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If you personally don't feel that the space is a space for you, than don't attend. For other transguys who don't feel comfortable there as it's "women's space,"- don't attend.
Just my two cents....And I think this is a GREAT discussion! 
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Gender is drag
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05-08-2006 11:21 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
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Originally posted by Hellboy
but there are boys on T that never get surgeries. so what about them? |
how do they identify?
do they call themselves male? boy? man?
that's what i'm on about. i know that the inclusion issue for diva's den isn't about including the genderqueer folks of all stripes and flavas...that don't call themselves ftm or male. because they are free to attend.
it's about including the genderqueers that do identify as ftm, male, transguy...because some of these folks were pissed last year - the women's community gave them what they wanted: recognition for being male - but no entry to a women's only strip show.
so now those same folks have argued for inclusion to this event based on their female bodiedness. so now the fight is to be recognized as male but not male enough not to be at a women's only event. the fight is to deny any sense of being female but acquire access to female space based on our flesh, the very thing we deny and feel trapped by.
it's ridiculous.
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
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05-08-2006 12:06 |
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ok i get ya. but look at the things one has to do in order to get T. you have to change your thing on your ID. so.. makes it difficult for folks checking ID to distnguish which gender someone personally chooses. I believe that they are leaving up to the individual to go or not. I dont think it ruins any steps forward FTM's have made. Cuz like you, any FTM's that identified strictly male would not go. I think its a step toward a broader more inclusive thing where you no longer have to sit on one side or another.
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05-08-2006 12:17 |
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Sadov
pride princess
Posts: 455
Location: Victoria
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I'm having trouble figuring out how exactly I want to address this, especially knowing next to nothing about Diva's Den, its politics, or its history... actually, I'm not sure I should attempt to address it at all, or just leave it to others. So I'm just going to type for a while... and I will either click "Post" when I finish, or just close my browser window and forget about it. We shall see.
I am, and always have been, distinctly uncomfortable with any space that specifies a itself as gender exclusionary in any way... i.e. any space that operates by excluding one or more gender. Please notice that I say "uncomfortable" and not "opposed to", because I'm not sure whether or not I AM opposed to these spaces or not. All I know is that I am uncomfortable with them, for a variety of reasons, and that this is a question I've been struggling with for a long time now. Should these spaces even exist? I really don't know how to answer that, as my beliefs and politics and experiences pull me in two opposing directions on this question.
In order for a space to behave in a gender exclusionary way, first it must embrace a certain dichotomized view of gender. This is what makes me so uncomfortable about it. Any space that is women only (or men only, or trans only, or whatever) is operating on an implicit assumption that there actually is a distinct category "woman" or "man" or "trans" that people can easily be packaged into. That we can actually difinitively say (whether through biology, gender presentation, or self-identification) "these people are women, and these people are not." This idea of gender as segmented, with categories that are distinct and seperate enough to be used to exclude or include certain types of individuals, does not sit well with me. Not only are there people (and many of us) who will not fit into any of the provided categories (therefore excluded from all spaces that do not operate on strictly gender-neutral terms, not to mention excluded from all possible linguistic discussion of gender as a whole), there are also plenty of people who DO identify with these categories but whose gender is not nearly as black and white when examined closely. I'm sure many of you know what I'm talking about here - I can't be the only one who knows women who have boy sides, and boys with woman sides, and all other types of gender deviations imaginable.
Gender, to me, is not something that can be safely categorized. I view gender as fluid, as a continuous spectrum of masculine, feminine, androgenous possibilities, none of which are in any way mutually exclusive. I neither buy into the idea that there are fixed gender categories, nor do I buy into the idea that a person's gender, once identified in one way, will remain that way... gender is fluid both on a macro and a micro level, and our genders are constantly works in progress, which will change and evolve and change back and we live our lives. Trying to pin them down as one thing or the other, or trying to exclude or include only certain genders into certain spaces, is not only counterproductive but also, in all honestly, impossible.
Now I'm not exactly arguing about Diva's Den here - like I said, I really know very little about it, and thus don't feel qualified to speak to it. I'm just trying to throw some thoughts about women-only spaces in general into the arena of discussion.
I would also like to comment on my feelings towards spaces that define themselves as "Woman only, trans-inclusive". I guess here I'm going to verge on throwing my hand in with b_w, though I don't think I'm so much agreeing with his argument as with some of the premises in it. Mostly in that I see "woman only, trans-inclusive" as being a hypocritical, even non-sensical, term. A woman-only space, by nature, is not inclusive of anything but women - trans-inclusive woman-only space (unless you're only speaking of MtF trans, which in this case we are not) is an oxymoron, maybe even a logical fallacy. You cannot welcome a trannguy or an FtM or ANY individual who does not identify as a woman - regardless of what they DO identify - into a woman-only space and still call that space woman-only.
For instance, b_w, when you performed at the first Diva's Den and did not identify as a woman, Diva's Den logically was not a woman-only space then either. If it were, you wouldn't have been welcome there. So what we actually have occurring is dishonesty in the way in which Diva's Den is marketing itself, and has been since day one... if b_w's short history of the event in question is accurate. If from its conception Diva's Den has not been operating as a woman-only space, then any argument that uses Diva's Den's women-only space policy as its premise to argue that other genders should not be allowed is an innately flawed argument. According to the info b_w provides, Diva's Den has never been a woman-only space... regardless of the image it has promoted.
So... I guess the real question is is should Diva's Den continue to operate as a non woman-only space, and publicize that fact by advertising its trans-inclusiveness? Should it drop 'woman-only' altogether, as this is not only inaccurate but also an oxymoron when coupled with 'trans-inclusive'? Should it move to become a woman-only space? Or, as posited earlier in this post, is 'woman-only' even possible? And how positive would it actually be?
Like I said, I don't have answers... I'll leave that to people who know a little more about Diva's Den, or perhaps are a little less uncomfortable about drawing up distinctive gender categories than I am.
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05-08-2006 12:15 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
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hmmn...sadov. i don't think that binary gender constructs exist either. i come from a time when putting on a drag king show was an extremely subversive thing to do.
when a female bodied person that was masculine identifed in any way was not very acceptable in any community.
this issue is not about people that don't ascribe or identify as one extreme of the gender spectrum or another. i'm talking about folks that have thought about who they are and feel that they are in no way woman identified.
when i performed in diva's den i didn't identify as strictly male or female. i simply identified as transgender. i embraced the fluidity of the spectrum. and so yes, the semantics of diva's den being women's only space is just that...semantics.
my issue isn't with diva's den or their semantics, whether or not they should remove the women only bit. or whether they should address the past.
my issue is with folks that have decided to pick a gender on the spectrum and become it, transition and be male. call themselves male. have society identify them as male. look themselves in the mirror every day and say i am a transman, a man, a boy. that choose that label, that make the decision.
yes gender is fuid, it is not black and white in my opinion. our personal choices in how we identify and want to be identified are another thing all together. the labels we apply, the folks we associate and gather with are all our choice. the communities we live in are all our choice.
i think it's important to have communal space and inclusivity. i also think it's important to have seperate space and exclusivity. while i love folks that identify as femme, i don't think i'd want them at an ftm meeting about issues dealing with transitioning.
and i'm sure they wouldn't want me at their tea party while they talk about femme issues like invisibility for example.
it's a mistake to think our humanity makes us all the same just the same as it's a mistake to think our differences don't make us all human.
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by boy_wonder: 05-18-2006 13:13.
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05-08-2006 12:47 |
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kinney
diehard vagina enthusiast
Posts: 811
Location: Guildford
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The word, 'transition' describes something that takes time and is a growth from one thing to another. Bw, it's great that you were able to instantaneously able to drop this "two-spiritedness" that has been apart of your life for how many years? many of these ftm's that are coming out are exptremely young and know or feel male as a gender but to just drop the social structure that has been a large part of their young life must be horribly hard for them. can you imagine being mid 20's years old, only ever having dated and associated with lesbian/bi/queer women (well mostly) and then because you have found the courage to come out of the closet as transgendered or rather truely male, all of a sudden they are finding themselves not welcomed in many of the social events or programs that you were just before you came out? now you are asked to piss or get off the pot? if you are truely male then you will 'respect' the female-only events...unless of course you are willing to pretend and lie to yourself and others then you'll be allowed in. you call that progressive? how about cutting some of your fellow brothers some slack who have all the respect in the world for women and women only space but also expend a huge amount of energy for the mostly female community through drag shows etc. and yet because it's now a fundraiser for the dyke march instead of youthquest or some other more neutral event, it's a big problem to have transmen at the event? shouldn't the female-identified people of the community show our fellow supporters some support and a pair of open arms instead of shutting them out? anyway, just some thoughts.
I think it's entirely possible to be all male and still be transitioning out of your past which included a female body and female socialization and influences, regardless of whether or not the transman ever went through a feminine phase in his life. I think it's a huge mistake and horribley unfair of any community to ask it's members to ignore it's past. Their pasts and their experiences make them who they are today...and I know some pretty fantastic transmen. 
__________________
"Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining!" 
, unknown
Happiness is a Choice! 
"You don't have to like it you, you just have to do it" 
, unknown
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05-08-2006 14:51 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
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innerestin' points and views one and all. i think what i am getting at is being clouded with questioning gender spectrums and continuums. i also think that assumptions are being made about what transitioning is like for me and for anyone. leaving your usual life behind is not easy for anyone regardless of age.
asking, demanding society and your community to recognize you as male on that spectrum when you are female bodied is a difficult process for me just as much as any trans guy younger than me or older. it's all relative. it is laughable that someone who is not transitioning will tell me what it's like. how this choice affects my daily life.
as for that gender spectrum...the issue is not all the genderblending folks on that specturm...and lets face it, every spectrum has a polar opposite side. so when it comes to gender it's biological male identified folks on one end and biological female identified folks on the other. everyone else falls inbetween. when someone chooses to ask, demand, require society, their community, family, friends, social networks to recognize them as one gender or another they have decided to pick a polarity.
i feel i was born male despite the fact society doesn't think so. i don't think ftm or female to male is the correct bullshit label i have to wear. nor do i think any label is a label i have to wear. but lets face it. i live in this fucked up world. so while i fight for change i'm also trying to survive intact and in one piece. believing all my life i am something that i have predominantly been told is nuts. wrong. sick. messed up. at least now i'm getting somewhere. i've picked my polarity although i really feel i had no choice. it's who i am. all i have done is put my voice to how i have always felt. and i'm making changes, asking to be respected by the world i live in for my right to be my male self.
10 years ago our vancouver dyke community was not so accepting of masculine women or male identified female bodied individuals. there has been a lot of change. and acceptance. drag king shows opened doorways for male identified trans folks that didn't exist before. don't think i am not aware of tranny boys taking up women's space. i have asked for space from the dyke community myself. i wasn't out as a tranny boy then. no one asked me, they just labelled me diesel dyke, bulldagger or heshe instead...i did get bashed in the line ups for the women's bar on more than one occasion. told i didn't belong there.
a women's space - the lotus - gave drag kings and genderqueers their first stage. 1 night a month. the same space i was told i didn't belong at by some of the more vocal lesbian patrons.
365 days a year the penthouse club is a strip club...
364 days of the year predominantly the crowd is male identified folks. typically the only female identified folks work there either taking off their clothes or serving drinks. if women do show up they are most likely regarded as dykes/lesbians or meat.
1 night a year a group of female identified folks put on a strip show by women for people that at the end of the day identify as female. it doesn't matter what body they are in, where ever they play on the spectrum...if they call themselves female, come on in.
1 night of the year some women want to take off their clothes for women free from the gaze of men. of male identified folks.
for a myriad of equally valid reasons. from safety to just kinking out with folks of the female persuasion. women do have a different experience together when guys aren't around.
and we are different. gender does affect how we live in this world. tranny guys that feel like they were born men in female skin aren't so different than men that feel like men born in the male skin. and once testosterone is in the mix there really is no difference except the flesh we are born in.
they wanted 1 exclusive night. out of 365 possible nights.
now here's a reason why this tranny guy thinks exclusive space is necessary sometimes.
a few months ago i was raped. by a biological male identified man. during the last couple of months i have been trying to find some help via counselling. let's just say everyone has been booked that would even be able to deal with a trans guy. until may 15...my first appointment to get some help.
yesterday my doctor tried to find some help in the meantime which so far has been waiting around. doc says..."how about a men's rape group?"
sure...that makes sense because i'm male identified however...i was raped by a biological man, likely the folks at this group will be biological male bodied folks too. chances are a good lot of them won't think i belong there, they'll be uncomfortable dealing with their issues. i'll be uncomfortable dealing with mine. and there is no way my experience as a male identified female bodied person is anything like the experiences of those male identified male bodied people.
so doc says "how about a women's group?"
sure...that makes sense because i'm female bodied and we can at least relate to what it is like for a male bodied individual to take our bodies against our will. however i am male identified and some of those women will not feel like i belong there because they will recognize me as a man. as i have chosen in my female bodied genderqueer self. and their experience as female identified female bodied folks is sooooooo not going to be anything like my experience as a female bodied male identified person. they won't be comfortable and neither will i.
i say "so there's not a group for trans or ftm's is there?"
my doc shakes his head and quietly says "no."
as a female bodied person i can relate to why female identified folks might want a night at a strip club free from the eyes of men, of male identified folks.
as a female bodied male identified person i can understand the need for space that is safe to share experiences and find support and help that does exclude others for the sake of one group over another.
as a female bodied person born male at birth who has come out...has demanded to be recognized as male by my peers, my community, my social network, my society, this fucked up world i live in...i understand that it is by my choice and my integrity honouring my true self that i am not welcome at an event put on by folks that identify as women for folks that identify as women.
what i would love to see is not tranny boys taking over space that women have fought for, and yes....some tranny boys have fought in the trenches for that women's space, but for the women's community to get in the trenches with the tranny boys and help us fight for space too. we need to get off our asses and create our own space just the same. and we will have more space for everyone vs less space for some and more space for others at their expense.
to me...that is what makes sense.
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by boy_wonder: 05-09-2006 15:04.
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05-09-2006 15:02 |
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wench
Forum God
Posts: 2,855
Location: transitional
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BW, thank you for sharing so much of your personal story with us. I think that it does help a lot of people to see where you're coming from and the perspective you bring.
And congratulations on your 1000th post. 
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05-09-2006 15:59 |
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RedneckAngel
pride princess
Posts: 433
Location: Colwood (Victoria)
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B_W, I certainly understand what you're saying about trans men "having their cake and eating it too" with women's spaces....
That being said, I think that transguys are more likely to be accepting of an event such as Diva's Den. I think Diva's Den is not wanting to exlude men, just exclude the ignorance that a lot of bio men have towards the lesbian/queer women community. There is a time and place to educate to eliminate that ignorance, but I don't think a strip show is such a place
But I also think that if there was a bio straight man that wanted to support Diva's Den, the organizers would be accepting of his support, and wouldn't tell him to piss off just because he's a man. He may feel somewhat of an outcast and a minority in the audience.... but I think if his intentions were in the right place, it's all good. At least I like to hope for that anyways 
Part of me agrees with you that for someone who identifies as male, they should stick to "male" spaces/expectations/etc..... part of me also wonders where society would be if we always stuck to our societal expectations of gender roles. Hmmmm..... I need to think on this more.
Thank you for sharing your views though B_W!
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Gender is drag
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05-09-2006 16:06 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
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thanks for the support and congrats wench.
it's not about whether or not transguys accept diva's den redneck. they do. they want in.
and your comments about letting in the supportive bioguys says it all.
the women that started this show wanted a space for folks that is exclusively for folks that are not male for 1 night.
why is it so hard to give up that male priviledged space for one night?
once the tranny boys come in then the supportive bioguys and soon enough that's the end of a strip night for women/female identified folks. the penthouse will be the same 365 days of the year.
and why are female identified folks acting like sheeple before the gender police when it comes to this issue? why the argument to sacrifice the space you've held for almost 10 years 1 freakin' night a year?
it's mysogyny through and through in my opinion. and it seems like all the steps we've taken forward with regards to accepting transgendered folks comes with much backward motion.
i don't get it.
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
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05-09-2006 17:05 |
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Aikio
SuperDyke
Posts: 1,111
Location: a womb with a view
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I wonder... did the Diva's Den organizers, performers and ticket buyers do a POLL about letting transfolks in to the show??
or... were they avoiding a political fiasco like when Kimberly Nixon took on Rape Relief? (that was a nasty battle... yeahy Kim you rawk!)
correct me if i am wrong... but i think that a lot of trans peeps have their social families, circle of friends, their support systems rooted in the local dyke/lesbian/queer/trans culture.
hmm just coz a person changes their genderID... does it mean they hafta ditch their tribe too?
yes i get it is a one night event... and it's admirable to respect the exclusivity too.... but maybe it's also a sliding thro the cracks kinda night... understandababbadoobideeedoobably so.
Diva's den is a big event... it makes for a hot date night... and it's completley transparent that FTM's, transfolks and every other queer in the city... would want to see some hot babes shed their inhibitions and clothing in a safe environment. Heck i am always shocked by how many of the 'conservative feminist lesbians' show up for peeler nite. They give me the giggles actually.
I think the conduct of the audience is what makes it safe and enjoyable for all.
Altho S&S and the other queer burlesque troops are doin a good job of giving us stellar show... diva's Den is a shakin money makin nite. The grand dame of the burlyQ.
Plus i think it's mostly about people sharing the experience with folks they love/like/just hang.... or wanna get jiggy with.
there should be a poll asking how many people use diva's den as a method of foreplay... seriously there should.
Heck i would enjoy seeing Mr.Banana pants (sorry don't know yer name) make some more juice... like he did at the S&S show.
And if you think about it... there's probably gonna be more dick on stage than in the audience anyhow. so why such a kerfuffle?
| quote: |
| Sadov (sorry bout the typo the first time) wrote: So... I guess the real question is is should Diva's Den continue to operate as a non woman-only space, and publicize that fact by advertising its trans-inclusiveness? Should it drop 'woman-only' altogether, as this is not only inaccurate but also an oxymoron when coupled with 'trans-inclusive'? Should it move to become a woman-only space? Or, as posited earlier in this post, is 'woman-only' even possible? And how positive would it actually be? |
If the community at large is kewl with the transition to inclusivity... and maybe if they keep the audience 'queer' and bill it as such...
then maybe it is time for not changing the event persay...
but updating the ad campaign and re-postering???
Hmm maybe the community has outgrown the need for women only spaces for large events? that would be kinda kewl too... don't cha think?
And who the fuck are the gender policia anyhow?
I am in trouble if they show up... for sure. Especially if i get to do an act with Godiva.
See i am one of the greys... i feel genderless coz i do not id with femmes and i sure don't align myself to being a trans guy either... coz i am not. My friend base is rooted in queer culture. my best mates are lesbians, queers, fags and straight but not narrow people.
Does this mean i don't get to get my groove on?
those who wanna go... entertain, be turned on... should get to go.
We all ahve the freedom to choose. choice is a good thing.
__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." -Albert Einstein
This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Aikio: 05-10-2006 16:42.
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05-09-2006 19:43 |
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