 one male identified trans perspective |
han_em_13
babydyke
Posts: 103
Location: Port Moody
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lol...and i just had to say it twice 
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05-17-2006 21:30 |
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han_em_13
babydyke
Posts: 103
Location: Port Moody
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i personally feel that this is one of the bests posts i have read since joining the forums. i have learned quite a lot about issues i have not thought about.
thank you to everyone who has contributed and to b_w for opening it up and for such honesty. 
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05-17-2006 21:27 |
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wench
Forum God
Posts: 2,855
Location: transitional
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| quote: |
Originally posted by boy_wonder
that's doable via grants if you play your cards right. i know a great grant writer but i'll need more than that. i'll need support in the community and help or it won't work.
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Good luck.
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05-17-2006 19:34 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
Thread Starter 
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Aikio
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| and of course there is no club, pub or bar owned by a tranny. |
maybe you and jake could open one over the summer?
it would rock. |
i would be lovin' that...but i don't have enough $$$.
hmmn, i do have my wheels turning and am thinking about trying to get some things happening for transfolks. but my idea isn't a bar. it would be more like a coffee shop so it can be open in the day and during the night. with bar nights every weekend.
that's doable via grants if you play your cards right. i know a great grant writer but i'll need more than that. i'll need support in the community and help or it won't work.
there's much to be gained from all of this dialogue.
and i do support the vdm and will continue to do so. my rant isn't at diva's den so much as the folks that applied the pressure...i guess i'm in on the ruckus last year and know who some of the complainers were. and how they publicly identify.
and i guess i'm surprised that the vdm buckled under the pressure but then again not so much. trans rights are the latest hot button civil rights issues...who in this community wants to be accused of being discriminatory?
my rant and my questions are about whether or not it's actual discrimination to have gender exclusive events within the queer community. i don't think it is.
i would think it's discriminatory if every queer space in vancouver had no space for transfolks. or if every club night where women frequent was exclusive to transfolks.
and i would feel so even more if a whack of those clubs were owned, run and managed by women.
the sad truth is that there is actually less space for women in queer vancouver in 2006 then there was in 1996.
in 1996 there was a woman's bar that men were welcome at with the exception of friday nights and various women's nights and events around town all year.
there is not a single women's night for only women even once a year in 2006 folks.
so really i feel it's a case of reverse discrimination. the oppressed opressing.
the silver lining is there is actually more acceptance and inclusive space for transfolks. although i would say that mtfs have a much harder time than guys like me or jake.
someone asked earlier what mtfs do, where they hang out and congregate...mostly they hang out with other mtfs they meet, usually at support groups, or family and friends....mostly they are isolated. it's really hard for most mtfs to pass. and they are harassed when they go out. or beaten up. or killed. so they stay in.
not all of 'em of course but i think more than not.
i am not trying to create negative energy or oppress anyone's rights...the purpose of this rant and asking these kinds of questions is to actually find some solutions at the end of the day that respect everyone regardless of gender identity and don't take away from one group for the sake of another.
and i just happen to be of the opinion that these new found tranny rights are at the sake of the women's community this time. whether or not i am alone in that opinion is moot. it's a topic that is important in the queer community and discussion is the only way to find solutions. not silence.
and thank you cuteextra...that's a pedestal i'm bound to fall off of however. i'm no hero. 
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i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
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05-17-2006 19:00 |
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jake
diehard vagina enthusiast
Posts: 750
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ha, the irony of the amount of changes i have to go thru in my life while i transition. where IS the puking icon!? 
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The way you judge or criticize someone, is a subconscience reflection of the way you feel about yourself.
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05-17-2006 15:43 |
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bruce
diehard vagina enthusiast
Posts: 908
Location: out in the ether
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| quote: |
| Originally posted by jake i could finally say FUCK THE CORPORATE WORLD!!!! |
Love ya, Jake. Never change, OK?
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the difference between a flower and a weed is a judgement...
(Anonymous or Asesh Datta, no-one really knows)
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05-17-2006 13:06 |
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arachnia
Forum Legend
Posts: 1,865
Location: Coast Salish Territory, Vancouver BC
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jake
i applaud the VDM for making the event transinclusive BUT i also worry what impact that will have on the event for those who attend, those who perform, and any backlash that FTMs might receive from being there. i know it's been a heated issue in the past and can only hope that the event is "fret" free for those who dont know who us tranny boys are in the community. |
Essentially, it's up the to the organizers to decide whether an event is trans-inclusive. As we all very well know, we can argue semantics 'till the cows come home, but I think it's safe to say that Diva's Den is trans-inclusive... so I don't think anyone has any right to bitch about trans-folk being there and I doubt that there's going to be any turf wars. Just lemme know who I have to beat up if you have any problems! 
Although this thread started off as a rant about Diva's Den, I think it's important to realize that the thread as a whole isn't about one specific event, but rather a general discussion about where trans-folk fit in at gender-exclusive events. Dare I say that I think it would be silly for anyone to stage their opinions and create negative energy.. I'm with you jake:
| quote: |
Originally posted by jake
for those of us who are oppressed, we can't fight oppression by oppressing each other. |
And let's not forget that it's equally important for the community to have women's only spaces as well as trans-inclusive ones. Although we're part of that same community, we actually have different needs.. it's beneficial for everyone to respect that and accomodate each other.
Okay - I'm done. Bedtime. 
__________________
"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Doctor Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall. So forget any ideas you've had about lost cities, exotic travel, and digging up the world. We do not follow maps to buried treasure and "X" never, ever, marks the spot. Seventy percent of all archeology is done in the library. Research. Reading."
- Indiana Jones
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05-16-2006 23:14 |
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jake
diehard vagina enthusiast
Posts: 750
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haven't read all the posts in this thread but wanted to comment on it. i'm in agreement that if you're going to go thru all the trouble of becoming a man, why stop being a man and pout because you're not allowed in a womens only space? that's just stupid, you're a man, you identify with one, it's a women's only space, so why are you even there? there are reasons that some space are designated as such and you'd think that since you were once a woman, you'd understand and respect the need for the designated space.
it's also a decision i've come to live with that becoming a man means i wont be welcome in women only space. i think i saw comments to do with that transitioning period and as my dr was pointing out to me last night, you have to realize that when the transitioning process is all over and done, you will be perceived as a straight man (unless of course you're gay). i told him i identify as queer and he's again pointed out that no matter what, once i finish transitioning, i will never be perceived to be queer. it sort of sank in just what post transitioning was going to mean. you will be perceived to be a "bio male" unless you broadcast that you aren't.
i applaud the VDM for making the event transinclusive BUT i also worry what impact that will have on the event for those who attend, those who perform, and any backlash that FTMs might receive from being there. i know it's been a heated issue in the past and can only hope that the event is "fret" free for those who dont know who us tranny boys are in the community.
that being said, i also see those of us who do support the vast array of dykes in the community and see diva's den as an extension of that. i would never be one to not support the VDM as I see that as just being a judgemental thing and something else that would tear the community apart rather then bring it together. as kate bornstein said in her keynote address at the FTM conference last year, "we need to band together to fight oppression." it's thru all the other "rights" movements (women, gay, black, etc.) that society has progressed. for those of us who are oppressed, we can't fight oppression by oppressing each other. strength in numbers baby!
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The way you judge or criticize someone, is a subconscience reflection of the way you feel about yourself.
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05-16-2006 21:23 |
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jake
diehard vagina enthusiast
Posts: 750
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Aikio
| quote: |
| and of course there is no club, pub or bar owned by a tranny. |
maybe you and jake could open one over the summer?
it would rock. |
ha, maybe you're onto something Aikio
then i could finally say FUCK THE CORPORATE WORLD!!!!
__________________
The way you judge or criticize someone, is a subconscience reflection of the way you feel about yourself.
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05-16-2006 21:04 |
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b_w.... i think you hit it right on the nose when you wrote about the younger generation not having to fight the same battles..
i have mentioned it before on the forums and i think its a really important topic... i too, think its grand that we have and are 'winning' some battles... but, i think some of us are forgetting that there are still many battles to be fought for and won.. trans rights being one of them.. and more importantly i see a lack of respect, understanding, and a lazy attitude in learning about the generation that has come before.. the folks that have spent years and years and copious amounts of energy, dedication, anger, and passion.. to lead us to the place we are now.
as a woman.. i feel as tho we still have many miles to go.. but i recognize how blessed i am to have the freedom that i do... and i have this freedom only because of the people that have paved the way and stood at the forefront of this revolution...
i think we need to look around and see all that we have... and we should do this out of respect for those who have fought and continue to fight... we have come far but we all have journeys ahead of us........
ftm=feminist tranny menace.... boy_wonder you might just be my new hero...
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05-16-2006 15:04 |
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Aikio
SuperDyke
Posts: 1,111
Location: a womb with a view
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| quote: |
| and of course there is no club, pub or bar owned by a tranny. |
maybe you and jake could open one over the summer?
it would rock.
__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." -Albert Einstein
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05-16-2006 14:02 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
Thread Starter
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you're welcome kharmachameleon...i'm a loudmouth.
| quote: |
| original by kharmachameleon:Is there a point when a ftm trans individual ceases to be trans, and considers himself "formerly trans", i.e. the "transition" is finished, and he is simply male? depending on what state transition he is in, he has varying degrees of male/societal privilege, and perhaps has even less privilege than (gasp) women. |
good question...i think that's personal and relative to the individual transitioning. however there is a defined point when the medical community typically regards the transition process over and being "male" is recognized. it takes about 5 years on average for the transition process to be physically "complete". transitioning mimics puberty much like boys turning into men. so a similar process is attempted for each person that transitions. and it's relative as well. everyone responds to testosterone differently. for some folks it's a much longer process, for some it's much shorter.
i agree that your stage of transitioning affects how much male/societal priviledge you may or may not have. and let's face it...transfolks don't have much priviledge unless they pass. in society in general.
i think it's a bit different in the queer community because we are often much more educated about transfolks, recognize them visually more frequently and have different parameters for what is masculine and male and what is feminine and female than the heterosexual majority in general in my opinion.
and regardless of whether or not you pass...the issue is also having the integrity to honour yourself and your transitioning process. if you call yourself male it doesn't matter who else does or doesn't at the end of the day. respect yourself.
i've been thinking a lot about this. reading the responses and noticing the different points of view. i can't help but also notice that our younger generation of folks seem to be the folks that don't get my argument.
and i think i understand why...because there haven't been any great fights for rights for you folks. the generations before you have come up fighting for space and access, protesting for aids and queer rights. the right to marriage being one last final battle won. trans rights are the newest civil rights battle.
that's awesome when you think about it. this newest generation of queer folks in vancouver don't have the same battles. or don't think they do any way...i have also listened to some of my younger friends bitch about how apathetic their peer group is in general so i dunno...
i can't help thinking about how there are a ton of queer bars for male patrons owned by men and they're open to queer women and transfolks...and how there isn't a single queer bar for female patrons owned by a woman and open to queer men and transfolks.
and of course there is no club, pub or bar owned by a tranny.
there are a handful of womens/trans nights held at establishments owned by men. mostly catering to men for the better part of the week.
and someone will mention the mix...and i will mention that 1% ownership by a woman/group of women speaks volumes louder than my words can say.
our only queer paper is geared mostly towards the gay male identified folks in the community...
hmmmn...the disparity...show me where the progress for queer women in this community is?
i don't even think there is a single bar, pub or club in vancouver owned by a woman. queer, straight or otherwise. it would be great if i'm wrong about that.
so...do you see what i'm on about?
there's still a fight for women's rights, for space...for inclusion and equality.
call me an ftm = feminist tranny menace.
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
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05-16-2006 12:58 |
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boy wonder, i thank you for bringing up some issues that many people might have thought but have been too afraid to say.
the only fresh thought i'd like to add to this thread is that i think what's behind the "male-identified trans inclusive" policy is that our community is constantly in a 'progressive'* state, and at this point, we are very caught up in language and semantics. what this has led to, by my observation, is that instead of making us more cohesive as a community, we are stepping on eggshells around each other.
really what we need, and what is intended, is for more respect and kindness among all demographics of the queer community.
*overall, but some of the progressions are moving us back rather than forward.
Edited to add one more thought... Is there a point when a ftm trans individual ceases to be trans, and considers himself "formerly trans", i.e. the "transition" is finished, and he is simply male? depending on what state transition he is in, he has varying degrees of male/societal privilege, and perhaps has even less privilege than (gasp) women.
in that case, the "having your cake and eating it too" idea does not apply.
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Never let anyone question your sexuality but you.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by karmachameleon: 05-16-2006 03:10.
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05-16-2006 02:53 |
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boy_wonder
Posts: 1,211
Location: east vangroovy
Thread Starter
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| quote: |
| I've wondered why we havent seen you around these here parts anymore...and if you feel that way I apologize and would hope that you (and anyone else) would bring it to a moderator's attention in the future. My understanding of superdyke is that it is all inclusive to the ftm mtf queer bi lesbian... whatever we call ourselves community. So if that is not the case then it needs to be addressed. Its such a travesty that our queer community can be so harsh to one another... its such a sad and regressive waste of time. |
well thankin' ya kindly but i am not one to bitch and complain much in that regard...especially when it's plain to read. no big deal. i don't have to read it and i don't have to be here.
i'd like to hear from some of those folks you mention too reignfall although it seems that's unlikely.
again thanks for the props and i am blushin' over here. 
let's hope all the passionate voices keep the respect happenin' and this thread remains open for debate. 
__________________
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees...
expect the unexpected. and whenever possible, be the unexpected.
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05-12-2006 19:53 |
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Aikio
SuperDyke
Posts: 1,111
Location: a womb with a view
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coffee with the wench... hmmm let me think
4 $s$schizzle gawd i hate that werd.
okay so can you get yer other promoters to voice their opinion?
i will ask one of the mc's if she cares to put in her 2sense.
__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." -Albert Einstein
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05-12-2006 18:14 |
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wench
Forum God
Posts: 2,855
Location: transitional
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Aikio
maybe some of the promoters and performers of diva's den could voice their views and feelings too? after all it's their show. |
I am both a promoter and a performer for Diva's Den, and I have talked this issue to death and have nothing left to say on it in a public setting. If anyone on these forums honestly wants my opinion (either personal or professional) on the subject, they're welcome to message me to set-up a time to meet over coffee - but be warned that I'll probably only be willing to chat about this topic for about 5 minutes before I want to change the subject.
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05-12-2006 17:25 |
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reignfall
hardcore lesbo
Posts: 668
Location: a
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or conducting some sort of quick poll/survey to get the audience's consensus.
__________________
A working class hero is something to be. - John Lennon
O Wherefore Art Thou Bent? - Ann-Marie Macdonald
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05-12-2006 16:51 |
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Aikio
SuperDyke
Posts: 1,111
Location: a womb with a view
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maybe some of the promoters and performers of diva's den could voice their views and feelings too? after all it's their show.
__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." -Albert Einstein
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05-12-2006 12:37 |
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reignfall
hardcore lesbo
Posts: 668
Location: a
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| RE: one male identified trans perspective |
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Wow.. what a passionate thead. I love and respect the array of opinions and beliefs y'all hold.
I'm going to sidestep adding any comments to this thread... mainly because I cant speak to the politics involved because I really dont know enough about them.
What stands out the most to me in this statement:
| quote: |
Originally posted by boy_wonder
and in the last few months with the incidences of male bashing type threads and posts i am not on here so much. because i don't feel like i am welcome here. i've noticed a few ftm folks i know have stopped coming on here as well. |
I've wondered why we havent seen you around these here parts anymore...and if you feel that way I apologize and would hope that you (and anyone else) would bring it to a moderator's attention in the future. My understanding of superdyke is that it is all inclusive to the ftm mtf queer bi lesbian... whatever we call ourselves community. So if that is not the case then it needs to be addressed. Its such a travesty that our queer community can be so harsh to one another... its such a sad and regressive waste of time.
That being said... I dont spend much time on the main site so I dont know what goes on there...but I encourage anyone to speak up in a thread or privately to a moderator if you dont feel comfortable with something. Even though this is the surreal world of the internet it should be a safe space for everyone.
and....
I'd be curious to see more responses to this question from b_w's original post in this thread:
| quote: |
Originally posted by boy_wonder
i'd like to hear from some of those male identified trannies that have fought to be included in women's only events. i want to hear your argument...tell me why YOU call yourself male, are fighting to be recognized as such, are telling women in this community to call you by a male name, use male identified pronouns to address you, treat you as male and want women's priviledge too? what little there is of women's priviledge that is. |
I think you are a true gentleman b_w and I fully respect what you have been saying in this thread...thank you for taking the time to open up this almighty can of worms
__________________
A working class hero is something to be. - John Lennon
O Wherefore Art Thou Bent? - Ann-Marie Macdonald
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05-12-2006 09:55 |
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