 Pregnant Man Expecting Second Child |
GeekGirl
going thru a phase
Posts: 60
Location: Abbotsford, B.C. really!
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06-21-2009 16:09 |
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Originally posted by silverfish
I appreciate a lot of the points people have brought up.
I also appreciate a space where people feel safe to dialogue about challenging issues like transphobia.
For me, when I can see that a person is being non-judgemental and curious I appreciate the points they raise, or the questions they have. I think the difficulty, is when the questions people ask or the statements they make feel invalidating.
I think it is always touchy when we are talking about humans and identity. If one doesn't exactly know what transphobia looks like, then they may make those very invalidating statements without knowing it. But, I guess the key is gentleness, and admitting an interest in learning more about what transphobia means, and how to not be transphobic.
When people start demanding to know answers as to why a person identifies a certain way, such as Thomas, and people talk about him as if he's an object worthy of studying for instance, this is where I feel invalidated as a trans person.
This is not directed towards anyone, just food for thought. Online forums can be challenging in this way.
Back to the subject: I do think Thomas' situation is challenging for everyone involved. It's supremely challenging for the majority culture who are still wrapping their brains around what it means to be transsexual, let alone transgender/gender spectrum, and now the added concept of trans reproduction. I think the fear in the gay and trans community around Thomas outting himself and his story is justified. Trans/queer people don't want to lose any hard fought ground in terms of discrimination and rights, and Thomas going out there on his own doesn't provide the optimal learning for the general public. So, I understand the backlash in the queer community.
However, since he has made the choice to go public, perhaps the queer and trans community could focus on education, as opposed to condemning him. This only sets Thomas up for violence, and keeps other trans people closeted and in fear. The challenge should be, okay, no that it's out there, how do we address the issues that are now publicly exposed. How do we make this catalyst a great learning opportunity for everyone. |
I agree with your post 100% - good on ya.
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http://www.vancouverislandreviews.com/
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11-24-2008 14:40 |
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I appreciate a lot of the points people have brought up.
I also appreciate a space where people feel safe to dialogue about challenging issues like transphobia.
For me, when I can see that a person is being non-judgemental and curious I appreciate the points they raise, or the questions they have. I think the difficulty, is when the questions people ask or the statements they make feel invalidating.
I think it is always touchy when we are talking about humans and identity. If one doesn't exactly know what transphobia looks like, then they may make those very invalidating statements without knowing it. But, I guess the key is gentleness, and admitting an interest in learning more about what transphobia means, and how to not be transphobic.
When people start demanding to know answers as to why a person identifies a certain way, such as Thomas, and people talk about him as if he's an object worthy of studying for instance, this is where I feel invalidated as a trans person.
This is not directed towards anyone, just food for thought. Online forums can be challenging in this way.
Back to the subject: I do think Thomas' situation is challenging for everyone involved. It's supremely challenging for the majority culture who are still wrapping their brains around what it means to be transsexual, let alone transgender/gender spectrum, and now the added concept of trans reproduction. I think the fear in the gay and trans community around Thomas outting himself and his story is justified. Trans/queer people don't want to lose any hard fought ground in terms of discrimination and rights, and Thomas going out there on his own doesn't provide the optimal learning for the general public. So, I understand the backlash in the queer community.
However, since he has made the choice to go public, perhaps the queer and trans community could focus on education, as opposed to condemning him. This only sets Thomas up for violence, and keeps other trans people closeted and in fear. The challenge should be, okay, no that it's out there, how do we address the issues that are now publicly exposed. How do we make this catalyst a great learning opportunity for everyone.
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Racism has to do with consequences, not intent. The process of examining this is one's anti-oppressive work.
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11-24-2008 14:04 |
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arachnia
Forum Legend
Posts: 1,865
Location: Coast Salish Territory, Vancouver BC
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| quote: |
| By blog author:If he wants to look like a guy, with a beard, but still have kids, that’s fine, but don’t say you’re a male, because men don’t have kids through their own bodies. They just don’t. |
By the same logic, I could claim that men don't start off with vagina's because "they just don't." Is that any different?
The author begins to formulate the argument that a stepping stone approach to equality is necessary when they write "acceptance is the first step and equality comes thereafter." Essentially the author claims that what Thomas has done is too confusing, he has made a "spectacle of himself," and thus is causing harm. Once again, it's a weak argument because under the same logic, I should live my life trying to be "less gay" in situations where folks are less accepting, or likely to be confused, in order to work towards equality. I don't know about what ya'll think, but if the queens and fags at Stonewall tried to act "less gay" to avoid raids and harassment, then we wouldn't be where we are today. While our existence is inherently political, no one should have to compromise who they, their goals and dreams under the sickening illusion that living without pride and freedom to be ourselves somehow brings us closer to equality regardless of whether we're trans or queer.
Notice how many times the blog author writes the word "confused?" Is someone who is FTM and pregnant really more confusing than someone who is FTM? Or is it only confusing because it challenges the authors personal experience with gender, and maybe our own little boxes we've created?
I think those of us who believe gender is a spectrum still have a natural tendency to categorize people. It's just that instead of having two boxes for gender, male and female, we have several. Still, the idea of a pregnant FTM forces us to reevaluate what we thought we had already reevaluated! As for the argument that Thomas is doing harm to the community - I don't buy it! The author needs to examine the justification for their beliefs about gender, specifically whether their idea is based on a need to conform to the dominant societies binary concept of gender and what an approach that embraces all forms of gender diversity would look like.
__________________
"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Doctor Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall. So forget any ideas you've had about lost cities, exotic travel, and digging up the world. We do not follow maps to buried treasure and "X" never, ever, marks the spot. Seventy percent of all archeology is done in the library. Research. Reading."
- Indiana Jones
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11-23-2008 01:18 |
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Is reverse intolerance possible?
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http://www.vancouverislandreviews.com/
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11-22-2008 10:32 |
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GeekGirl
going thru a phase
Posts: 60
Location: Abbotsford, B.C. really!
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| quote: |
Originally posted by unknown author
So, please, don’t judge those of us who are transgendered by him. Judge us by who we are. Most of us aren’t like him and most of us agree that he truly is not a part of a community that just wants one thing…equality. |
There is no chance that I will lump Thomas Beattie into same group as the author of this blog. I find the intolerance of the author very sad. Essentially it is being said that you have to choose and commit wholy and entirely in order to be one of us and welcomed into the transgendered community. This is the same crap that the bisexual community is experiencing. Shunned by all because they cannot pick a side, Are you kidding me? Look this way, act that way, have these parts, and pick a role then you can be part of our community.....WOW how backward is that? I know that the author is not representative of the global transgender community. I just cannot believe that there are people that are so intolerant within the glbtq community towards each other. I am continually disheartened.
And what exactly is the problem with wanting equality?
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11-21-2008 19:53 |
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Well, surprise surprise - Thomas Beattie has a book and a documentary coming out or has already been released.
Book and DVD release.
Also, I came across this blog maintained by a FTM -
The Blog
Which provides an interesting view and opinion.
I’m Spittin’ Mad about this Thomas Beatie Crap
November 13, 2008
So, first Thomas Beatie had to go and have one child and now he’s having another. The issue I have with this is the backlash this is going to have on the transgendered community. Let me go back a bit, to explain this to those who might not know who Thomas Beatie is and why he has the ability to affect an entire community of individuals.
Thomas Beatie is someone who has taken the steps to legally change their name, physiological body characteristics and nearly everything but their female reproductive organs and vagina to reflect the fact that this person is, in their words, male. Thomas Beattie is said to be transgendered, identifying as male. Essentially, Thomas Beatie is supposed to be just like me (born bio female, but taking/took steps to legally become and live as male). However, Thomas Beatie isn’t like me. Thomas Beatie has reversed the “becoming a male” process, in order to utilize his female reproductive organs and have not one, but two children.
I know this sounds confusing because it is. It’s confusing to many of us who are transgendered, too. First, let me explain that some people believe they are between genders. Some people don’t believe in the gender binary system. These people aren’t trying to make a spectacle, nor are they claiming to be something they aren’t. That’s one of the reasons why I have such a problem with Thomas Beatie. If he wants to look like a guy, with a beard, but still have kids, that’s fine, but don’t say you’re a male, because men don’t have kids through their own bodies. They just don’t. Those of us who are FTM (and identify as either transgendered or male) and are legally becoming male nearly all agree on this point. Many of us also agree that Thomas Beatie has the potential to do IRREPARABLE harm to our community and the potential for acceptance and equality.
See, this is what it boils down to. People are entitled to be happy and live their lives the way they see fit and/or be who they are as long as that doesn’t affect others negatively. The transgendered community has long made strides towards acceptance and equality. Slowly but surely, we’ve been getting there. People have been learning to accept us. It’s a slow and grueling, painstaking process. People are able to get the concept of what being transgendered is and means, but Thomas Beatie has bounced back and forth between the process, to the point where the average person simply cannot comprehend who or what he/she is.
I don’t have to tell you that acceptance is the first step and equality comes thereafter. Without acceptance there can be no equality. I want to be treated equally. I want the same equal rights and protections as other Americans, but the possibility of such equality and such protections is tipping in the balance thanks to Beatie and his confusing decisions. I don’t want this to tip in the wrong direction, because that truly means we’re taking strides back…not forward.
In a split second, the media circus surrounding Thomas Beatie could destroy years of hard work and building bridges between the transgendered minority and the majority. The fact that he seems to be doing this for publicity’s sake is even more painful for those of us, who are truly transgendered, to watch. Seriously, look at what the fundamentalist right has done to gays and lesbians. Can you imagine their reaction to this? I cringe to think of all of the possible, destructive messages they will be spreading about the transgendered community, all thanks to Thomas Beatie.
My question is, why? Is it worth it to break down an entire community Thomas? I know you got paid by Getty for images of you while pregnant and with your daughter. I know you got paid for interviews, to be in a documentary and you’ll be making profits from the new book you’re set to release next week. I guess all this must be worth it. All this must be worth destroying and affecting the lives of millions of Americans not asking for notoriety or money…just asking to live normal, healthy, equal, and accepted lives. I guess it must be worth it to destroy all the hard work of transgendered advocates, by confusing everyone, with your twisted logic of what it means to be male, what it means to be transgendered, and what it means to be a father.
Advocates on Beatie’s side claim being a parent is a human need. I agree. I have one son. I want more children. I, however, will NEVER be having a child through my body. I’m a man. Why would I want to have a child? If my girlfriend couldn’t have children we would do what other couples who cannot have children do. We’d adopt. Biological connection does NOT make a parent, especially with millions of children in foster homes and orphanages around the world. It’s plain selfishness, in my opinion, but Thomas Beattie doesn’t care what this is doing to others…or what this will do to his own children once they become old enough to understand the controversy. All he cares about is what he can gain from this and gain he has.
People can eventually understand that transgendered people feel like the opposite gender from the gender they are born. So, a person born a female feels male and thus doesn’t want to be seen or treated as female. That makes sense. It makes sense to me and it might not be understood completely by others, but it is not as complicated to “get” as many make it out to be.
What most people don’t get is someone taking the steps to be a man only to back track to be a woman by coming off hormones, having kids, then going back to being a man again. It confuses them and all of us who aren’t confusing (us transgendered folk unlike Beattie) become confusing to them. I don’t want people to keep telling me, I’ll probably just want to go back to female to pop out a few kids, because that isn’t me. That isn’t me. I don’t want that. BUT…because of Thomas Beatie people think transgendered people are all CONFUSED, and most of us aren’t.
I can’t say much more than I have. It makes me mad to think about all of the money Thomas Beattie is making off the suffering of others. So, please, don’t judge those of us who are transgendered by him. Judge us by who we are. Most of us aren’t like him and most of us agree that he truly is not a part of a community that just wants one thing…equality.
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http://www.vancouverislandreviews.com/
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11-21-2008 17:12 |
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There is a bit of misinformation out there. Neither Thomas, nor his family were paid to appear on the Oprah or Barbara Show...
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11-21-2008 16:20 |
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GeekGirl
going thru a phase
Posts: 60
Location: Abbotsford, B.C. really!
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This forum is a wonderful microcosm of human feelings and experiences that have shaped our thoughts and understandings of the world around us, resulting in the myriad of perspectives, opinions, questions, accusations, misunderstandings and new understandings. This is a perfect reflection of the "real world". The difference that we can make here in our little world is to really question and really listen to each other's perspectives. We certainly do not need to agee with each other, but we do need to hear one another. Acknowledge the perspective of all contributors. Question the perspectives, you bet we should, but hopefully with a respect and real desire to understand. A combative, challenging stance is for debate. This is intended to be discussion.
We are all right. We are all wrong. We all have something to say that needs to be heard. We all have something we need to hear. The story of the Beattie's needs to be heard by the world. The world needs to have an opinion about it. We will not agree, as a world. We don't have to agree. That is not the point.
I appreciate what I have learned from your thoughts so far. I have had a few AH HA moments both from the story itself and from our discussion here.
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11-21-2008 11:40 |
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| RE: Pregnant Man Expecting Second Child |
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Originally posted by GeekGirl
It will evoke much within heart and mind I am sure. Feel it with your heart, but discuss it with your brain. If you feel like it, discuss it here with us. |
I thought the point of this thread (and every other thread on this forum) was to discuss and invoke discussion. I keep seeing threads that go something like this "Why is no one posting on the forums?" "Where is everyone?"
Here's a perfect example. I have not once, not even slightly refered to what Thomas has chosen for himself as absurd or inappropriate or repulsive. I simply inquired to other ftm's on the boards whether it was a common feeling as a self identified man to carry and birth a child.
Sorry to anyone I offended (this seems to happen quite easily on here) but my opinions and questions were completely subjective in nature, just as I feel most everyone's are.
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| They are promoting discussion. That is the best thing to come of their story. |
Precisely. However it would seem some people don't want to discuss it unless the others agree with their point of view.
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| Why not celebrate? Why the idea that this SHOULD be kept quiet, not discussed openly? |
We really don't know Thomas and his wifes motivation for appearing on Barbara Walters and Oprah. I can have my opinion on why I think he did and you can have yours. But, money talks.
I personally would fear for my child's safety in the event of death threats (which they have received a lot of) This is definitely not right and it's appalling someone is threatening them, but this is the reality of coming out on national tv.
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| I think judging top surgery as "drastic" is "reactive" and "inflamatory." |
Having part of your body removed is pretty drastic IMHO. Once again, this is my subjective point of view. Thanks.
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| Thomas has autonomy over his body, and noone has the right to question that. |
No one has the right to tell me what I can question then.
If I was face to face with Thomas I would tell him I fully respect his choices (because they are his and his alone) and I wouldn't question him.
But this was a discussion and I was discussing, that's what a discussion forum is all about.
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http://www.vancouverislandreviews.com/
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11-21-2008 07:13 |
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No dear earth angel I didn't say that. I am not generalizing, I am being specific. What I do take issue with is why there is the need to question their intent, motivation, desire to be parents, because Thomas, a man, happens to be a tranny and have a uterus. That it is a personal identity that is being questioned. I find it troubling that so many in the glbtq (within which there is much lateral violence-discrimination, particularly towards trans individuals) wanted 1. them not to be pregnant, 2. to keep quiet about it, 3. to question their choice in a way that invalidates and questions the right of any trans person to desire or carry a child. Thomas has autonomy over his body, and noone has the right to question that. If you read what I wrote, I said I find it troubling that so many in are questioning their pregnancies and family "in THIS way", not with an air of understanding, but of judgement.
I did ask if it would have been easier for folks to accept had he had children before transition than after? and why? Thomas has a male appearance, identifies as male and yes that can be stereotyped, but just because his appearance is conventional doesn't mean he has to follow all conventional male ideology.
drd
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11-20-2008 20:36 |
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I do think that many identify as "male" without "drastic" physical changes. I don't think the changes he went thru were "drastic". I think judging top surgery as "drastic" is "reactive" and "inflamatory." If you have a breast reduction surger or a mastectomy, should that stop anyone from being a parent? Or birthing someone? The changes SEEM radical because he was a model when he was categorized as female, but had he been "butchy" would the change seem so radical?
I think it is easy to stereotype trans folk, and men in general, which is not the same thing as reality. Yes some reinforce stereotypes, sure both by accident and on purpose. Thomas defies the stereotypes, which is what makes folks uncomfortable and unwilling to understand. What is so wrong with a man carrying a child? I guess it's ok for Arnold Schwartzenegar and Dani Devito to star in a movie about that "unlikely" occurance and when it actually happens, it is upsetting to some of the mainstream, but to have it questioned like this in our own community is upsetting.
Why is it that taking testosterone and having facial hair means then that being pregnant is inappropriate or absurd? I think you're proving the point is that Thomas and his wife are doing something very natural, building a family, very hetero-normative. What isn't hetero-normative is that the father is carrying the child... Because "men" don't do that. it upsets the belief of binary gender that most of our world is based on. Well, this lucky man has done what most men can't, would it be more comfortable if he had the children BEFORE he transitioned? WHY?
I come from a culture that celebrates those that carry children as sacred, that can accept those that identify with different genders/ sexualities (as unstagnant and fluid), and celebrates the gifts that come in supernatural form. I guess perhaps coming from a culture that judges, dissects and rejects the different, I could see how the mainstream society would find the act of a man carrying a child to term, birthing her, and raising her a threat. Because it challenges everything the mainstream teaches about masculinity and feminity and the justification for the gender divides. Apparently they are not so cut and dry.
I think watching the interview and listening to them speak about their own experience, rather than judging WHY they would make that decision, would be beneficial for anyone wanting to understand their decisions. I know I will read their book and our family is simply accepting them tell their truth. Personally, I find the question of WHY, absurd. WHY NOT?
drd
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11-20-2008 19:24 |
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Originally posted by darkreddawn
Well I would take this couple, and the mention of the other trans couples who have had children that the assumption of what a man is, wants and does is not accurate.
drd |
Ok, so why has Thomas taken testosterone and grown a stereotypical "male" moustache? Can't one just say they are a man without the drastic physical changes? Because appearance and gender are two entirely different matters isn't that correct? It would seem as though trans people like to play into certain stereotypes as much as the next.........
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11-20-2008 16:26 |
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There are so many considerations with each surgery involved in the medical part of transition and each part is not for everyone... There are risks with continuing on T and not having the uterus etc... removed... I do agree with Arachnia that how one undergoes transition is a deeply personal and multi-layered decision.
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| But I'm not talking just the urge to be a parent, but actually go through the motions of carrying and birthing a child - since transmen seem to want to be traditionally male in appearance, I would assume they would also want to be traditionally male in the "males do not birth babies" category? |
Well I would take this couple, and the mention of the other trans couples who have had children that the assumption of what a man is, wants and does is not accurate. Regardless of what mainstream society perpetuates. A man no longer has to be categorized or assumed to be a baron, non-child carrying breeder. I think that it's wonderful that Thomas knows himself well enough, and is secure enough in his masculinity, to take on pregnancy and childbirth for his family. I love that his wife is nursing, and that her body responded to their pregnancy to lactate without medication. Just another example of how completely natural this is.
No, not all trans men want to be pregnant, but not all trans men are straight either. I know several gay/bi and straight trans men whom would love to be, or refuse to be pregnant as well... it's not for everyone, but that doesn't mean if its right for you, you shouldn't undertake it, talk about it, or celebrate it.
Which I think is an important part of this discussion. Why not celebrate? Why the idea that this SHOULD be kept quiet, not discussed openly?
drd
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11-20-2008 12:29 |
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"Most important to consider is that the majority of folks would be offended if I said that a lack of a penis is what defines a woman. So isn't it equally offensive to claim, directly or indirectly as some folks refer to Thomas, that a lack of ovaries is what defines a man?"
Wow. That is awesome. What a great point!
__________________
Racism has to do with consequences, not intent. The process of examining this is one's anti-oppressive work.
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11-19-2008 13:21 |
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arachnia
Forum Legend
Posts: 1,865
Location: Coast Salish Territory, Vancouver BC
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The process is so different for each trans-person that I find it hard to pass judgment on whether it's okay or not for Thomas to have kept his reproductive organs and have used them or otherwise question his motives. Maybe for Thomas it was enough to have his breasts removed, take T and grow facial hair.
It reminds me of transwoman I know who, by all accounts appeared very masculine, but throughout her transition refused to wear a wig or do anything in order to pass as outwardly female. Instead she opted to let her hair grow out naturally and wait for the hormone therapy to take it's course. Wearing a wig, for example, was perceived by her as deceptive, fake and a way of hiding the process of transitioning rather than embracing it. For her, the journey of transitioning without shame, without fear and with great pride was on equal footing with the actual process. Transgendered means non-binary and I have great respect for my transwoman friend who not only embraced this, but transitioned in such a way that put herself out there and educated people because let me tell you, folks asked questions all the freakin' time!
Thomas reminds me of her for a number of reasons. He's taking an opportunity, and great risk, to educate people. For him to become pregnant, I imagine is a great sacrifice (if you read the article carefully, you'll have noticed his wife is unable to have children). Then again, maybe it's not a sacrifice at all. Gender is, as much as to my transwoman friend as it is to Thomas, a spectrum. The important thing is that you feel comfortable in your skin, which clearly Thomas feels comfortable enough with to become pregnant and still consider himself to be a father. That takes a strong self-actualized person and a heap of courage.. or dare I say, it takes a lot of balls. 
Most important to consider is that the majority of folks would be offended if I said that a lack of a penis is what defines a woman. So isn't it equally offensive to claim, directly or indirectly as some folks refer to Thomas, that a lack of ovaries is what defines a man? The point is that it's not that simple and it's not binary. And as much as Barabra Walters words her questions in a manner that reflects societies tired perception of gender, and borders on offensive, at least she uses the correct pronouns and at least the issue is out in the media. Stepping stones are a good thing..
__________________
"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Doctor Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall. So forget any ideas you've had about lost cities, exotic travel, and digging up the world. We do not follow maps to buried treasure and "X" never, ever, marks the spot. Seventy percent of all archeology is done in the library. Research. Reading."
- Indiana Jones
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11-19-2008 00:14 |
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Hippie
babydyke
Posts: 100
Location: Kelowna
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I think we are a man or a woman regardless of out parts. It's deeper seeded than that.
Having your breast removed is one thing but lower surgery is HUGE. financially, physically and emotionally.
If Thomas was happy with his enlarged clit and so was his wife I think that was the best decision for the both of them. who are we to cast judgment.
I have had two children and look at my body now. I wish my boobs weren't as saggy and milk filled and my butt is a lot bigger than it had been before, but I look at my two beautiful daughters and wouldn't change a thing. I would go through anything for them and treasure them always.
Everyone should be able to enjoy having babies and raising wonderful children.
If a wife can't do it than you'd expect your husband or partner to step up and help any way they could. This time being carrying their child. As long as this family loves their children and treats them right then they should be allowed to live the way they choose.
What's with the birth certificate? parent and parent. Could someone actually take the baby (ies) away from the mother if something happened to the father? Would her rights be protected or is this some gray area they should be worried about?
I think if you asked a straight male who has gone through invitro, miscarriages and/or infertility if they would carry a baby to help their wife. I think most would even have to consider it, they would jump at the chance.
__________________
"Speak you mind, even if your voice shakes"
"If you're not mad, you're not paying attention"
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11-18-2008 23:21 |
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I've read this post and there are many different view points when it comes to this topic(much like anything else that is new to us).
There is one thing though that made me wonder about the motivation and mindset of Thomas. In the Barbara Walters interview he said he felt "liberated" after getting the breast removal done and it was so good to feel like a complete man. Yet, he chose to keep the reproductive organ of his female phase. In my book there is nothing to make you less of a man (physically speaking) than the female reproductive system.
I find Thomas himself doesn't have all the answers and instead of saying he can't answer something he gives an answer that makes things more complicated leaving some viewers wondering 
One thing we all have to keep in mind here is when he came out as the "world's first pregnant man" people will have a lot of questions and they will look to him for answers. Whether he can give them the answers or not, the questions will be asked.
Another thing is, there is nothing in life that is viewed the same way by everyone, thus making it natural to have contradictory viewpoints.
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THE GOOD OR BAD OF MY WORLD DEPENDS TOTALLY ON ME AND WHAT I CONTRIBUTE TO IT.
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11-18-2008 18:53 |
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GeekGirl
going thru a phase
Posts: 60
Location: Abbotsford, B.C. really!
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11-18-2008 17:27 |
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